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Jeff_Brauer

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Did Other GA gca's use Ross style chipping areas?
« on: April 05, 2008, 01:51:45 PM »
Ross is now famous for chipping areas and subtle contouring around the green.  I find myself wondering why other gca's of his era didn't jump on that bandwagon?

Was it because it was really only at Pinehurst, and then (if you look at old photos in Richard Mandell's new book) implemented in Ross major tweaking for the 1936 Open there?  At that point, the depression was in full swing and no one else had the work to emulate such chipping areas.

I really can't recall too much in the way of photos or writings suggesting that fw chipping areas were the norm for the Golden Age.  Given the Scottish roots of the game, was it an underutilized feature?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Did Other GA gca's use Ross style chipping areas?
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2008, 02:40:00 PM »
Kelly,

Fair(way) enough!  And actually, I think many US courses had broad swatchs of fw height grass around the greens, on account of the large gang mowers in use.  But my sense is, very few had any real subtle contouring to make chipping and recovery more interesting.

But the real question is, why didn't other gca's use this feature in the Golden Age?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

wsmorrison

Re: Did Other GA gca's use Ross style chipping areas?
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2008, 04:37:51 PM »
Flynn did it quite often from the early 1920s through the end of his career.  Probably his best use of chipping areas and the greatest number of them is found at Shinnecock Hills. 

When did Ross start to use these features?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 05:25:51 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Mike Hendren

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Re: Did Other GA gca's use Ross style chipping areas?
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2008, 04:42:06 PM »
Jeff,

Are you/we sure that Ross' ubiquitous chipping areas weren't subsequent alterations?   
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Did Other GA gca's use Ross style chipping areas?
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2008, 04:43:57 PM »
My understanding was that most surrounds were mown fairway height.
What I would really like to know was when the first fringes were mown.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

michael j fay

Re: Did Other GA gca's use Ross style chipping areas?
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2008, 08:36:34 PM »
Mr. Ross was a Superintendent before an Architect. I do not believe that he ever created chipping areas. Part of his overall strategy was the difficulty of making par when the player missed the green. Chipping areas are an invention of a later date.

TEPaul

Re: Did Other GA gca's use Ross style chipping areas?
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2008, 09:37:29 PM »
Harry Colt recommended fairway height areas around a number of greens on his hole by hole drawings and recommendations for Pine Valley in 1913 for Goodness Sakes. It's just that Crump decided not to do any of them. If you'd like and if I can easily lay my hands on the file I'll even tell you what holes they were recommended.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 09:41:02 PM by TEPaul »

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Did Other GA gca's use Ross style chipping areas?
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2008, 09:40:38 PM »
Ralph,
I asked Rand Jerris (USGA Historian) that same question(first use of fringes) several years ago and he had no definitive answer at that time. I don't know if that has since changed, but I doubt it.

Jeff,
We always experience 'spring' rough in CT., where the grass gets so thick and grows so fast that maintaining anything 'short' just off the greens would be a real challenge. Wouldn't the sandier soils like those found around the Pinehurst area make this easier?
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re: Did Other GA gca's use Ross style chipping areas?
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2008, 09:45:47 PM »
I wish I could tell you who told me this not long ago but there was one architect, maybe one course or maybe more where the design and idea was to take the big wide tractor drawn fairway gang mowers right around greens to head back the other way rather than turning in front of the greens. Pretty clever, I'd say.  ;)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Did Other GA gca's use Ross style chipping areas?
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2008, 10:17:02 PM »
Tom P:  I think that was Robert Bruce Harris, in the fifties.

Ralph:  I had a long discussion about "fringes" with Karl Olson and his assistants from National years ago.  In the oldest pictures of the course there didn't appear to be any fringes and the assistants could not understand how this was possible.  We decided that, before regular irrigation, the steep banks off the greens could only support thin grass so they didn't need to worry about fringes.  I do remember reading something about Oakmont in the old days that their greens mower guys used to cut a beveled fringe by picking up the greens mowers slowly as they made their turns ... that was from the 1920's I think.

Jeff:  I'm curious to hear more from Wayne about Flynn's chipping areas at Shinnecock ... there weren't any when I first saw the course in 1980, but they were added (or restored) by David Eger for the U.S. Open.  My take would be that not many courses in the U.S.A. mowed their greens surrounds tight enough for chipping areas in the Golden Age ... I've never seen a bentgrass chipping area that really worked for the ground game.

Brad Klein

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Re: Did Other GA gca's use Ross style chipping areas?
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2008, 10:38:02 PM »
Sandy soil helps, otherwise it never drains quite well enough to work. Ross' use of them has been so badly overstated and over-proclaimed. I think it was extremely rare, if at all. Even at Pinehurst, they only made sense as the greens started to rise up dramatically from the surrounds -- something that was scarcely in evidence when the greens were finished there in 1935, and certainly not until lots of top-dressing accumulated to build up the greens vertically. In any case they would never have been possible or usable until lightweight fairway units could take the surrounds down to under 1/2 inch.

The recent fascination for chipping areas as a kind of add-on at a few US Open venues  -- Congressional, Torrey Pines -- has resulted in little pockets that are laughably under scaled.

John Moore II

Re: Did Other GA gca's use Ross style chipping areas?
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2008, 12:28:36 AM »
Brad--I agree with you, I think many of the chipping areas kind of just happened over time at many of the Ross courses, or were simply there in the natural terrain. Pine Needles and Mid Pines have chipping areas, but they are on hilly terrain and the depressions are natural. Wilmington Golf Club does not have the chipping areas like that from what I remember, since it is on a far more flat piece of land. I think the chipping areas, the ones that did not evolve over time, were simply there because thats what the land dictated.

TEPaul

Re: Did Other GA gca's use Ross style chipping areas?
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2008, 01:00:36 AM »
"I do remember reading something about Oakmont in the old days that their greens mower guys used to cut a beveled fringe by picking up the greens mowers slowly as they made their turns ... that was from the 1920's I think."

TomD:

I don't know how old you are or if you ever cut lawns when you were young but I sure did and it seems like most of the green mowing equipment back then was so light compared to today that the problems and exigencies of "turning" green mowing equipment back then was of no applicable comparison to today. In other words, "fringes" way back then just weren't necessary for space to turn green mowers on.


Jon Wiggett

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Re: Did Other GA gca's use Ross style chipping areas?
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2008, 03:58:23 AM »
Tom EP,

if I am not wrong the first hand mower produced for cutting greens was the Ransomes Certs in 1924 and this was hand pushed not motorised (hard work for doing 18 holes). The first motorised was the Auto Certs in 1950. Previous to this there had been others but none gave a good finish.

To me your comment about the mower being lighter makes sense. It would have been less difficult to turn them and you would not have wanted to mow more green size than needed.

Mike_Young

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Re: Did Other GA gca's use Ross style chipping areas?
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2008, 08:50:12 AM »
As one that is continuosly amazed at the intellect of the ODGs....I am just amazed at some of the things they came up with such as "triangulation of routings",  parrellisim, etc......but I just can't find where chipping areas were ever a part of design as much as they were a part of maintenance methods.....sort of like changing hair styles on a woman.... ;D ;D ;D  on some courses there is the option of mowing specific areas in a green complex as chipping areas and a few years from now the fad could be back to rough and the same area will be back at rough....mowing heights are so often if not almost always out of the architect's control yet they play such an integral part of his overall design......JMO ;D

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

wsmorrison

Re: Did Other GA gca's use Ross style chipping areas?
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2008, 08:56:43 AM »
Tom Doak,

I'll go through Flynn's drawings and locate some of the earliest examples where he indicated fairway height to wrap around greens.  Where there are hollows around greens, Flynn differentiated ones with rough and those at fairway height in the construction instructions and often with tufts of grass in the hollow to indicate higher mowing heights surrounding the green.

Cascades, original 1st hole, the depth of the hollow was determined by the amount of fill needed to build the green.  The instructions were to create a grassy hollow with the tufts in the drawing matching the tufts indicating the rough as shown flanking the fairway.



Below are some details from a 1938 aerial (7 years after the full course opened for play) of Shinnecock Hills.  Unfortunately, when I convert from a high resolution TIF file to a compressed JPG file, there is a lot of data loss.  While a number of greens have chipping areas, I selected the ones posted below because they came out the best after compression. 

1st



2nd



12th



13th



15th



17th

« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 09:06:43 AM by Wayne Morrison »

TEPaul

Re: Did Other GA gca's use Ross style chipping areas?
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2008, 09:05:53 AM »
On this point those aerials are some good stuff, Wayne.

wsmorrison

Re: Did Other GA gca's use Ross style chipping areas?
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2008, 09:38:35 AM »
Designated chipping areas in Flynn drawings:

Town and Country #1, 1921



Opa Locka #4, 1926



Huntingdon Valley #C-1, 1927



CC Virginia Hill Course #6, 1928



Shinnecock Hills #9 and #10, 1931




Kyle Harris

Re: Did Other GA gca's use Ross style chipping areas?
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2008, 09:40:25 AM »
What? Not the first green at Rolling Green?  ;)

wsmorrison

Re: Did Other GA gca's use Ross style chipping areas?
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2008, 09:51:09 AM »
You mean that chipping area that Mike "The Architect" Malone championed and was built? 

As you know, it is the exact opposite of what was in the one existing hole drawing, though it may never have been maintained that way.  It is possible that the plan we have is not the final plan.  It is one of the great greens in Flynn's portfolio requiring an accurate approach to have a good chance of 2-putting after an easy drive.

Here is the green end on the Flynn plan:

« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 09:53:08 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Peter Nomm

Re: Did Other GA gca's use Ross style chipping areas?
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2008, 10:06:31 AM »
I think the visual and playable aspects of the greens surrounds can be greaty enhanced provided that the surrounding terrain complements it.  My course has some great natural contour around the greens, and in the last few years we have made extensive changes to our mowing patterns to highlight them.  It was not part of the original design eight years ago, but both the maturing of the grasses and subsequent visits by the architect (Garl) have led us to do so.

They are still bluegrass, which we can mow to just under 1/2".  But we are exploring transitioning them to the same bent as we have in the fairways.  And as Brad K mentioned, at least we have a very sandy soil to make them somewhat effective from a playability standpoint.

But even if they remain at 1/2" bluegrass, they are far more imaginative than regular rough, and they definitely enhance the look of the greens complexes.

Mark_Fine

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Re: Did Other GA gca's use Ross style chipping areas?
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2008, 10:29:31 AM »
I agree with the most of the comments about Ross and chipping areas.  Chipping areas are a maintenance practice that has evolved over the years.  Regarding Flynn, if one intreprets "grassy hollows" as chipping areas, we'd have them on a third or more of our holes at Lehigh  :o  We just put one in on one of our holes and it really changes the complexity of the hole (made the hole much easier and less interesting).  Not sure that was Flynn's intention.  At the end of the day, it's only grass and not that hard to change.   ;)

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Did Other GA gca's use Ross style chipping areas?
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2008, 10:38:13 AM »
Thanks for the answers. I too wondered if Ross had been over credited.  But I recall that Herbert Warren Wind article in GD about 1966 (and if anyone here has it and can scan it, I would love to re-read it) waxing poetic about the Ross use of such things in place of bunkers, so I didn't think about it too much.

Richard Mandell credits Ross with starting to mold the surrounds in 1915, and continuing to do so over his career at Pinehurst.  There is also mention of the tournament prep and design changes for each of the major events at Pinehurst, where it seems some of those chipping areas really evolved, as late as 1963.

Given how unreliable ground game chipping must have been in the Golden Age, I gather it didn't make much sense then as it would now given modern agronomy.  The variety of lies would be a challenge to be sure, and perhaps any little knobs just off the green would affect play considerably, but the idea of a bump and run shot was probably pretty iffy in most situations.

Isn't it odd that some don't credit conditions with keeping the ground game alive or enhancing it, instead of bemoaning how overwatering took it away?  In fact, for both fw approach and chipping, the tighter cuts and smoother surfaces are probably better now for ground game than it ever was!  And I know most supers keep the approaches as dry as possible, simply because all the mowers turn in that area and wet spots equal tire tracks and depressions, which aren't acceptable.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Did Other GA gca's use Ross style chipping areas?
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2008, 11:27:27 AM »
Kelly,

Harp away.  Its not a great term.  If anyone knows, what terms did HWH use in his 1966 article for GD?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark_Fine

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Re: Did Other GA gca's use Ross style chipping areas?
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2008, 11:41:28 AM »
Kelly,
I agree with you about the term "chipping area".  "Short grass" might be better or "closely mown area".