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Matthew Mollica

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How much did MacKenzie have to do with Anything?
« on: April 04, 2008, 04:23:39 PM »
It continually amuses me when I read here that Alister MacKenzie mustn't have had too much to do with Augusta National, Cypress Point or other courses.

The opinion so often forwarded is "Well, how much time did he spend on site?".

The same individuals who offer this view have no concern when Royal Melbourne, or other MacK courses are attributed solely to him.

It seems to me, especially during his time in Australia, that MacKenzie rarely spent significant times on any site, save Pasatiempo. He studies the site, routed a course, recruited and educated people who could carry out his work, and then moved on.

Specifically in regard to Augusta, the routing has remained the most consistent facet of the course, and is perhaps the greatest attribute of the course, especially given the sloping site. Why therefore do people continually downplay the Doctor's role there?

Does he or any architect need to have spent X hours on site before authorship of a course is earned?

MM
« Last Edit: April 04, 2008, 04:28:39 PM by Matthew Mollica »
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Mark Bourgeois

Re: How much did MacKenzie have to do with Anything?
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2008, 04:49:11 PM »
Hi Matthew,

I think the answer is people think this must not count:
Quote
He studied the site, routed a course, recruited and educated people who could carry out his work, and then moved on.

They also forget he committed his thoughts to paper.  He wrote articles and books and gave lectures.  He enunciated a set of principles.  He left a literature and in that literature is not an exhaustive paint by numbers (although he did provide reasonably detailed instructions on certain aspects of design and construction) but an intellectual foundation that could enable construction of courses true to MacKenzie yet unique to their location and their builders / his partners.

When you go to a course and see his ideas put in the ground as he wrote of them, then how does he not deserve credit?  The intellectual capital belongs to him, even as his franchisees may have executed it very well and / or added their ideas and flourishes.

All this raises the question too of how much credit his associates deserve, yes?  I think you have to assess that on a case by case basis.

Clearly MacKenzie taught Russell and Morcom well, but that's unfair to them.  Clearly they learned well -- considering MacKenzie dealt in principles, once he established the routing he could perhaps rest with some comfort that the final product might not be literally "his" but would rest well with him.  But that's not the same thing as saying the finished product automatically must turn out spectacular.

It's his intellectual capital but application demands ability, too!

Mark

Kalen Braley

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Re: How much did MacKenzie have to do with Anything?
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2008, 04:59:57 PM »
From what I've studied of MacKenzie he does seem to have a bit of the "egnima wrapped in a mystery" kind of thing going on.

I think most in here are critical of the modern day architects who only spend a couple of days on site total.  For MacK in Australia amongst other places, its well documented that this was the case.  So perhaps its easy to fling criticsm his way for that.

In the final analysis though, i think its always best to see what the final product was and is to determine how effective he was.  No doubt his associates probably deserve more credit than they got, but in the end, if the routing, bunkering, and design was his brainchild....then it was his.  All the more reason to admire his ability to communicate to get the product in the ground and have it be good quality.

For those research mavens on the site, it would be interesting to see what jobs his associates did, without MacKs involvement, and see how it stacks up.  But if MacK did the prescribed amount of "mental labor" beforehand then I think he must be given credit for the courses.  In my mind, its the creativity and vision that is the key...all the rest is just moving dirt around right?   ;D  ;)  Just kidding

David Stamm

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Re: How much did MacKenzie have to do with Anything?
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2008, 05:33:39 PM »
I can't speak for the courses on his Australian visit and how they turned out (although from what I can tell the quality looks to be first rate), but AM actually spent quite a bit of time on the courses mentioned in the US. An interesting note is that some of Alex Russell's (Australia) courses that he had done solo were mistakenly credited to AM for years because of the similarity of design. This tell's me that Russell had "stuck to the doctor's game plan" and obviously learned a great deal from the courses he had completed for him. CPC was routed during two visits, Feb of 1926 and when he returned from his world tour in 1927. The final routing was a bit different from the initial one and GS covers them in his book. The actual work for CPC began at the end of November of 1927, seeding in March of '28 and finished in April. I think a large part of the speed of the construction was the work of Hunter and his research on how to handle the agronomy on the site. This was done while AM was on his world tour. Hunter proved to be a great assest to AM at Valley Club and MPCC as well. However, on his own, Hunter really had never done anything of note design wise after those projects. In addition, Jack Fleming, another one of AM's assistants, while capable, never did anything of note either on his own. A far as ANGC, AM had made 3 site visits lasting a few weeks each, so contrary to popluar opinion, the man was there more than most give him credit for. (Certainly alot more than some courses that Ross had his name on).
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Andrew Summerell

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Re: How much did MacKenzie have to do with Anything?
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2008, 05:44:27 PM »
Matthew,

I think he spent sufficient time at most courses and more importantly, recruited the right people. The problem is often, how many clubs claim AM as architect without giving due respect to others involved.

NSWGC is a perfect example. I refer to that as an Apperly course, because I believe the routing changed enough for MacKenzie to receive less credit. Kingston Heath is another (we can discuss KH in a couple of Wednesdays time), spoken about for its great bunkering, yet it was a course that he didn’t route.

I’m sure if you look at projects he was involved from the start to the completion of the planning (not end of construction) I’m sure you will find he spent as much time as any top shelf architect of his time.

Tom_Doak

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Re: How much did MacKenzie have to do with Anything?
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2008, 05:53:27 PM »
Andrew:

Others will dispute your last sentence (I feel a lecture on Flynn coming :) ) but the point is that MacKenzie worked in the manner described for most of his life, with fairly stunning results.

He did spend more time at Alwoodley in the beginning, and at Cypress Point and Pasatiempo in the end of his career, but it is not universally judged that those are his best courses as a result of his greater time commitment.

He "worked well with others", possibly more so than anyone in the business before or since.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: How much did MacKenzie have to do with Anything?
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2008, 06:05:23 PM »
Ive seen some of his work which is not great, but maybe the club just adopted a basic routing who knows, if you dont spend much time on site things can go wrong, sometimes things are not constructed as an architect wants, sometimes budgets shrink and more importantly in time others will change your work. Augusta has changed a lot really, how much is really MacKenzie now? In fairness few courses survive 50 years without some form of axe.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Andrew Summerell

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Re: How much did MacKenzie have to do with Anything?
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2008, 06:06:05 PM »
Andrew:

Others will dispute your last sentence (I feel a lecture on Flynn coming :) ) but the point is that MacKenzie worked in the manner described for most of his life, with fairly stunning results.

He did spend more time at Alwoodley in the beginning, and at Cypress Point and Pasatiempo in the end of his career, but it is not universally judged that those are his best courses as a result of his greater time commitment.

He "worked well with others", possibly more so than anyone in the business before or since.

I'm sure many things I say will be disputed.

Tom,

We seem to revere many of these guys as designers who were solely concerned for the improvement of the game & the art of design.

Being that he ‘worked well with others’ & was obviously an excellent teacher, do you believe this was because he trained people to a point of being able to trust them explicitly, or was it the more expedient purpose of being able to get more courses done & make more money.

TEPaul

Re: How much did MacKenzie have to do with Anything?
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2008, 09:31:03 PM »
In my opinion, Mackenzie was just one of those rare birds who was an ultra quick study with architectural things that took others more time to do. And he was a good networker.

Ironically, Flynn probably was another of architecture history's ultra-quick studies but Toomey and Flynn's business model and business approach and even their geographic purview was just about the polar opposite of Mackenzie's.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2008, 09:33:29 PM by TEPaul »

Tom_Doak

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Re: How much did MacKenzie have to do with Anything?
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2008, 10:31:31 PM »
Andrew:

I don't think it was just about making money.  MacKenzie started practicing in England at a time when clubs were only willing to pay for a couple of days of "consulting" time from an architect ... they would not pay for him to stick around and watch the construction.  So, he developed a practice around the idea that he wouldn't get paid for multiple site visits.  That m.o. just happened to work well for him when the business got world-wide and he didn't have time to get back on the steamer for Australia.

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: How much did MacKenzie have to do with Anything?
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2008, 10:33:18 PM »
Tom,
Would you expand on "worked well with others"?
Clients - builders - ?
THank you.
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: How much did MacKenzie have to do with Anything?
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2008, 10:51:24 AM »
I have always been fascinated by the mechanics of Mac's Australia visit and the results.  In the US, it would be quite possible to have retained a bunker specialist and/or green shaper who could get that look and those contours without Mac being on site. (The CA golf hall of fame installed one such Mac shaper as a member a few years back)  I wonder if some secret shaper was sent to Australia to do the same?

Otherwise, Mac was lucky to find a few Aussies who were incredibly quick studies and talented to boot, since it is some of his best work.

Without supervision, Mac could be credited with the routing and bunker placement.  Even with detailed plans and a few good conversations and even photos to show, the features could only be credited to him if it was his shaper doing the work in a fact based world.  (In a star system, of course, he gets all the credit)  The 3D quality of the RM bunkers would be difficult to show in grainly B and W photos of the day!

With Tom D doing a book on him, and the questions still largely unanswered as to the nitty gritty details, I gather the true answer is lost for all time.  If Russell was just that good and Mac found him (or he sought out and found Mac upon arrival, much like a young Tom Doak sought out Pete Dye) then it was a great good fortune for golf design that he did!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark Bourgeois

Re: How much did MacKenzie have to do with Anything?
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2008, 11:15:42 AM »
Jeff

I obviously am not the expert you need here and I only have a minute...but as far as the Australian trip goes, it's important to realize it wasn't "18 stakes on a Sunday afternoon."  MacKenzie's level of involvement varied across the projects (Royal Melbourne probably got the most attention, NSW less), but he:
1) drew up plans incorporating bunker locations and rough outlines;
2) gave instructions on how bunkers should be constructed / maintained; and
3) oversaw the construction of bunkers (and one green!) so that Russell (and Morcom) could see exactly what he was after.

Point 1) above was a lot more than taking a topo map and drawing something over it, at least in the case of the Melbourne courses.  He consulted with committees regarding membership details, he walked the property, etc.  Also, in most cases he was working over ground that already had a golf course.

One thing about working well with others in the Australian context: his blunt style, which may have grated in England, dovetailed nicely with the Australian culture.  His appreciation for Melburnians and their extant courses can only have helped.

All that said, he WAS fortunate to find Russell -- and perhaps especially Morcom: given his experience with green committees, he would have been deeply concerned about transmogrifications.

(One thing I have wondered is whether Royal Melbourne West isn't the truest application, and embodiment, of his principles. "Do as I say not as I do...")

Mark

PS There seems to be a pretty decent record of his time at Royal Melbourne! It's not completely lost history...

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: How much did MacKenzie have to do with Anything?
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2008, 11:26:22 AM »
Mark,

I understood from past readings that his plans were not slapdash at all.  I didn't know he had the time to supervise one green and several bunkers, which would explain a lot.

Of course, the next question would be at what point (as all associates are wont to do) did they ever feel comfy in winging it a bit?  In truth, there is a real similarity and theme to the Mac green contours I have seen in AUS, so I expect they didn't vary much, following Macs green details to put in mounds and hollows.  I just wonder what happend if he did one of his real extravagant tongue greens or wanted to try a triple decker, like 9 at CPC.  Or, if they wanted to try one. ;)

All of the above is just speculation, of course. Its just kind of fun to think about how things went down in the old days.  In some ways, I figure it can't be too much different than today, human nature being what it is.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jon Wiggett

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Re: How much did MacKenzie have to do with Anything?
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2008, 01:38:13 PM »
If one GCA does the routing for a course and another does the bunkering and green design who is the GCA?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: How much did MacKenzie have to do with Anything?
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2008, 01:50:29 PM »
Jon,

Interesting question, but its probably the features guy.  There are untold courses routed out by non names that get the final treatment by a bigger name once the housing developer gets serious.  I have never seen the routing architect given any credit once the big name gets involved.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: How much did MacKenzie have to do with Anything?
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2008, 04:46:42 PM »

He "worked well with others", possibly more so than anyone in the business before or since.

Tom thats possibly true, but then Colt co credited with the following on courses:

Rolland, MacKenzie, Allison, Morrison, Ross & Crump.  He was a true colaborator and that list is hard to beat.

Let's make GCA grate again!

Mike_Young

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Re: How much did MacKenzie have to do with Anything?
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2008, 05:11:27 PM »
If one GCA does the routing for a course and another does the bunkering and green design who is the GCA?

It is usually based on which one can sell the most RE for the developer ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

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Re: How much did MacKenzie have to do with Anything?
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2008, 09:54:06 PM »
Jeff:

There is a great letter from MacKenzie to the committee at Kingston Heath regarding Mick and Vern Morcom, who actually constructed his bunkers there.  MacKenzie basically tells the committee that they shouldn't expect Morcom to follow all of the plans to the letter, because he is the man on the ground and he is seeing how things fit in the landscape.

Alex Russell gets a bit too much credit for some of the stuff in Australia because he went on to be a designer of a few courses on his own.  The Morcoms don't get enough credit, because they were just "construction" guys in most eyes ... but MacKenzie and Morcom were a formidable team even without Russell.

Mike_Clayton

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Re: How much did MacKenzie have to do with Anything?
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2008, 12:35:52 AM »
The 15th at Kingston Heath was a blind, over the hill,short par 4 down to the 16th tee that MacKenzie described as a 'blot' on the course and he and Morcom made it a 155 yard par 3 to the top of the dune.
Together they made the best short hole in the country.

Vern Morcom designed a number of courses on his own - mainly in the 50s - and he did terrific bunkers in the mould of his father but unless the holes were straight or short they were not consistantly good.


James Bennett

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Re: How much did MacKenzie have to do with Anything?
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2008, 03:33:33 AM »
Mike

I think Vern Morcom must have owned a small dog, given the relative size of his doglegs.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Neil_Crafter

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Re: How much did MacKenzie have to do with Anything?
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2008, 03:56:22 AM »
Tom
I think you'll find that the Kingston Heath letter is a letter from Mick Morcom to the club rather than Mackenzie (as I have a copy) and that Morcom says that he may need to vary from Mackenzie's bunkering plan if circumstances require it.

I'll go into bat for Russell though. We do know that Russell was not found by Mackenzie as such, as Russell had already prepared his own scheme for the revamped Royal Melbourne course back in 1924 at the Club's request, along with AT Brown. Russell made a model of his layout that was on display in the clubhouse for some time but is now sadly lost. So Russell was already considered by his club as a man of some expertise in this area and when it was decided the Club would send for Mackenzie then it seemed only natural that the Club would get Russell together with the Doctor, and as old Cambridge boys it's no surprise that they 'clicked'. It is worth noting that when Mackenzie left Melbourne at the end of November 1926 that the land for the course was not fully settled and that would not happen until 1927 well after Mac was gone. So Russell had the job of revamping the routing of the West Course and also turning the previously envisaged 9 hole course into the starting and finishing holes of the East Course which he designed on his own.  

It is known that Mackenzie, no doubt with Russell and Morcom's input, built the famous par 3 5W before he left, so I'm sure this was 'on the job training' in Mackenzie's ways for both these men.

Also worth noting is that Russell had designed and built his first solo course at Yarra Yarra even before the West Course at RM went into construction. Mackenzie never saw the land for YY but Russell may have sent him plans of the course to comment on. So Russell was clearly talented enough to revamp whatever layout Mackenzie (no doubt with Russell's help) had settled on prior to him leaving and prior to the additional land of Bumford's Block in the NE corner of the course being purchased. This land allowed the layout to become alittle more spacious than the previous versions. The club has a photocopy of one of Mackenzie's sketches as you know Tom and the final layout Russell settled upon with the land acquisition differed in a number of areas from this earlier skecth, as you would expect.

No doubt Morcom's eye and construction skills were invaluable to Russell and one would suspect that in the case of any disagreement between the two, Morcom, as a club employee, and Russell as a wealthy pastoralist and one of the RMGC council members appointed with responsibility for the new course, that it would have been Russell's view that carried the day in those situations. So my view (biased as it is due to my research into Russell) is that Russell should get at the very least, co-designer credit with Mackenzie for the West Course.

Paul_Daley

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Re: How much did MacKenzie have to do with Anything?
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2008, 07:05:05 AM »
Hi Matty:

You’ve started a good thread and it got me thinking about how Mackenzie achieved so much in such a short time span, seemingly, ‘on the run’.

Arrogance:
Mackenzie was the very embodiment of arrogance—a trait not altogether absent in the contemporary maestros—and we’re the beneficiaries of that fact. Mackenzie knew what he stood for, architecturally, what he was doing, and how he was doing it.

Two clearly delineated paths of attack (for golfers):
Many of his design plans (Royal Adelaide and Royal Melbourne, to name two) incorporated two distinct ways to play the hole: one for the scratch golfer; another for the shorter-hitting higher handicap player. This, typically, was demarcated by two lines: one broken line; one solid line. With this dual design consideration lurking in his mind, surely that would eliminate time-wasting on consideration he may have, otherwise, been inclined to try. In short: Mackenzie adopted a time-saving design system.

Trust:
He was fortunate to form fruitful design partnerships. In a broad sense, partners tended to agree with his design principles, given the usual 'argy-bargy'. There is no doubting Mackenzie’s gruffness and single-minded pursuit, but equally so, he placed great trust in his selected design partners. If they happened to be good, and they generally were among the best ... that will save you time.

Mackenzie the Educator:
Shades of Henry the Navigator! What skill and salesmanship he must have possessed, in the manner of educating ground crews to his way of thinking. Hyper-vigilant at this aspect, he must have known, intuitively, that design is only one third of the pie; construction and maintenance being the others. Education is one thing; Mackenzie admired ground staff who could interpret his ideals and implement. In the case of Royal Melbourne, Morcom and Russell applied their own local magic to make the overall product better than Mackenzie, alone, could possibly achieve. "Golf Architecture" (1920) has the air of a sermon about it; I’d suggest this gave him an inner-confidence at the pulpit to educate where needed.

Disdain for shmoozing with committees:
How much time today is wasted on scmoozing pre-job with committees, goodness knows. Even Mackenzie had to spend some time with the enemy, but it wouldn’t have impacted too greatly upon his concept of what was about to be laid-out. Shmoozing with committe: no; great salesmanship: yes. 

Well briefed:
Mackenzie was not big on “surprises”. Consequently, he made a habit of being very well briefed: on property; on handicap abilities of club members (in the advent of not starting a club from scratch), and likely handicaps (in the advent of prospectus for a new club).

Personality:
A legendary inability to suffer fools, must have shored-up additional time.

Property traits:
Mackenzie, like other architects, won contracts to work upon less-than-ideal plots of land. A good many projects, however, were situated upon sandy, undulating properties where drainage/engineering issues were less troublesome. That’s a time-saver!

Falling under the spell of St Andrews:
Mackenzie carried a vivid mental image of St Andrews in his works. Its architectural lessons were learnt and transportable to distant lands. Most students of golf-course architecture would be the poorer without Mackenzie’s famous plan of The Old Course hanging in their study. The landforms he worked upon, elsewhere, were seldom like St Andrews, but the lessons were, nevertheless, rock solid. In his era, there really was a ‘wrong’ side of the fairway to approach the green; bunkers did have to be acknowledged and plotted around. The John Daly and Tiger Woods equivalents were unable to ‘blow’ drives clean over the hazards, so the Old Course could be meaningfully studied. Having this links as his working model and, surely ditching design possibilities that didn’t match the ideal of St Andrews, must have saved time. 
 



 

Mark Bourgeois

Re: How much did MacKenzie have to do with Anything?
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2008, 08:32:38 AM »
Paul

Can you please elaborate on:

Quote
Two clearly delineated paths of attack (for golfers):
Many of his design plans (Royal Adelaide and Royal Melbourne, to name two) incorporated two distinct ways to play the hole: one for the scratch golfer; another for the shorter-hitting higher handicap player. This, typically, was demarcated by two lines: one broken line; one solid line. With this dual design consideration lurking in his mind, surely that would eliminate time-wasting on consideration he may have, otherwise, been inclined to try. In short: Mackenzie adopted a time-saving design system.


and:

Quote
Falling under the spell of St Andrews:
Mackenzie carried a vivid mental image of St Andrews in his works. Its architectural lessons were learnt and transportable to distant lands. Most students of golf-course architecture would be the poorer without Mackenzie’s famous plan of The Old Course hanging in their study. The landforms he worked upon, elsewhere, were seldom like St Andrews, but the lessons were, nevertheless, rock solid. In his era, there really was a ‘wrong’ side of the fairway to approach the green; bunkers did have to be acknowledged and plotted around. The John Daly and Tiger Woods equivalents were unable to ‘blow’ drives clean over the hazards, so the Old Course could be meaningfully studied. Having this links as his working model and, surely ditching design possibilities that didn’t match the ideal of St Andrews, must have saved time. 


I hadn't thought of these in terms of saving time -- IMHO both really tack back to his principles, some of which obviously drew from lessons he learned studying St. Andrews -- but throughout his career he wrote of economy.  Going from his writings, it's like his white whale.

His principles would have tied to economy in design and construction, and generally things that cost less require less time: higher productivity.

So: better economy, higher productivity, less time.  Compared to other architects, MacKenzie's time in Australia might have counted XX% more.

Neil

Regarding the West, what does "revamping" mean?  Was he executing against Mac's ideas and principles or did he go in another direction.  (Is there a GA article you can point me to?) Didn't the club turn up a MacKenzie sketch that incorporated changes not "official" during his time there, including the present location of the 7th hole.

Thanks
Mark

Neil_Crafter

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Re: How much did MacKenzie have to do with Anything?
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2008, 07:28:45 AM »
Mark
By 'revamping' I meant that Russell took the plans as they stood at Mackenzie's departure and modified them to suit, but no doubt using his best idea of what the Dr would have done. Perhaps they had discussed before the Dr left Melbourne what should be done should the extra land parcel become available, but that is pure speculation.
For more on the Mackenzie sketch plan for RM, read the article by Dr John Green and myself from GA9 of 2006.

Paul
Macs plan for Royal Adelaide certainly had those two lines of play but his sketch plan for RM only had one. The two RM plans (Approximate and Wall Plans as we call them in the GA9 article) appear to have been drawn after Mackenzie left Melbourne as they include Bumford's Block and are certainly not in Mackenzie's own hand, and only one of these, the so called Wall Plan, which appears to be more refined and possibly the later of the two, has those two lines of play. Hope this helps.

cheers Neil

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