[BVince]

While doing a little researching on A. Vernon Macan I stumbeled upon this quote and wanted to see what you guys think about it.

"Holes should be designed so that the man who pays the bills, namely the average golfer at the club, can have a nice day.”

Thoughts?

[Norbert P]

 I'd say that rings true with Columbia Edgewater in Portland.  Members are very happy with the course and seem to appreciate some changes.  I don't know exactly how CE has changed from Vern's original design, but the course is a pleasant outing if the skies don't rumble and tumble and fall.

[Pete_Pittock]

Slag,
C-E held some of the Portland Opens when the PGA stopped in the 50s and 60s. These are the changes I can recall:
#1 entire green complex rebuilt and moved back. Lake to right changed.
#2 used to be straighter.
#6 new tee and fairway bunkers
#9 new green and lake changed
#10 new green complex
#15 green moved right about 40 yds. Used to be below last house.
#17 hole completely rebuilt (twice) in same general location

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Fircrest in Tacoma, near Chambers Bay, is a lovely place to play golf for the average golfer when the mowers aren't set too low.  The greens are great examples of highly contoured surfaces that get simply crazy when mowed too low. 

Hillcrest in Boise ws built in two stages by Macan.  The front nine early in his career and the back nine late.  The front has similar putting surfaces to Fircrest and the back is flatter. 

Both of these courses lead to a pleasureable round for the average golfer.

[Jeff_Mingay]

I've seen most of Macan's work in Canada, which is exclusive to British Columbia. But I haven't seen any of his work in the U.S.A. I need to get down to Fircrest. I've heard many good reports about the course. And, it's rare in Canada to find many original Macan-designed putting surfaces intact. Fircrest sounds like it has at least a few.

Macan's writings on putting greens are most interesting. He was a proponent of interior contour, and greens that fall away to the rear as a means to encourage the ground game. With nearly all of his work confined to the Pacific Northwest, it seems many of his greens were somewhat severely sloped and heavily contoured to ensure good surface drainage as well. 

[JohnV]

Slag,
C-E held some of the Portland Opens when the PGA stopped in the 50s and 60s. These are the changes I can recall:
#1 entire green complex rebuilt and moved back. Lake to right changed.
#2 used to be straighter.
#6 new tee and fairway bunkers
#9 new green and lake changed
#10 new green complex
#15 green moved right about 40 yds. Used to be below last house.
#17 hole completely rebuilt (twice) in same general location

Isn't #4 a new green also?  I seem to recall that someone change it in the 90s

[BCrosby]

"Holes should be designed so that the man who pays the bills, namely the average golfer at the club, can have a nice day.”

That's one heck of a credo. It brings to mind the inscription on the statue at the beginning of Animal House.

Bob

[Norbert P]

(Animal House statue)
EMIL FABER
FOUNDER - A.D.1904
KNOWLEDGE IS GOOD

#4 at CE will be changed again to make it more interesting. 
#10 fairway used to come up through the driving range - so green was approached from right.
#3 new green is under construction - further back and to the right.  Will not be used for swan song LPGA tourney this year.

Vernon Macan designed the course in 1925, prior to the building of Bonneville Dam upstream. I'm not sure how the water table was back then but the area is old flood plain.  It flooded severely in the forties (Vanport Flood) and many trees died as a result.  I don't know if Vern planted any of the Giant Sequoias that are there now, but they have proliferated nicely.
 
Though Vern's credo is simple,  I do appreciate it.

[Will MacEwen]

I've seen most of Macan's work in Canada, which is exclusive to British Columbia. But I haven't seen any of his work in the U.S.A. I need to get down to Fircrest. I've heard many good reports about the course. And, it's rare in Canada to find many original Macan-designed putting surfaces intact. Fircrest sounds like it has at least a few.

Macan's writings on putting greens are most interesting. He was a proponent of interior contour, and greens that fall away to the rear as a means to encourage the ground game. With nearly all of his work confined to the Pacific Northwest, it seems many of his greens were somewhat severely sloped and heavily contoured to ensure good surface drainage as well. 

Jeff- how intact are his courses in Qualicum Beach and Nanaimo?

The QE Park P&P that he did has gone to seed, almost literally, following the strike in Vancouver.  Hopefully they can get it back in shape. 

[Garland Bayley]

...
Though Vern's credo is simple,  I do appreciate it.

RTJ jr. credo at Great Blue

"Water, water everywhere, and not a drop to drink."

Or was that WC Fields.

Maybe it was, "Holes should be designed so that the man who pays the bills, namely the average golfer at the club, can wash his balls."

Sorry, back to Macan.

His sentiment is very much like several of the ODGs. E.g., AM saying that you should be able to play every hole with only a putter. Very different way of saying it, but the same sentiment.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Will,

I've not been to Qualicum Beach, unfortunately. It's early too; about 1913, I think. Around the same time he was completing his first course, at Colwood in Victoria. I took a quick tour of Nanaimo, about 3-4 years ago. I wouldn't use the word "intact" to describe the course, relative to Macan's work, there. However, I think it's still Macan's routing. Not positive about the greens.

[David_Tepper]

I like Macan's quote, the customer IS always right.

San Geronimo (west of San Rafael, Marin County, CA) is one of the better (and more overlooked) public courses in the SF Bay Area.  Macan did the course originally and his very good routing is pretty much intact.

I know Robert Muir Graves was brought in 20 or so years ago to give the course a face-lift. Two holes (#9 & #18) were changed for the worse and I don't know if the other green sites were altered.  I do know the greens are pretty good, with a number of subtle contours & slopes.

If Neal Meagher sees this thread, he might have a comment or two on San G.

[Bill_McBride]

(Animal House statue)
EMIL FABER
FOUNDER - A.D.1904
KNOWLEDGE IS GOOD

#4 at CE will be changed again to make it more interesting. 
#10 fairway used to come up through the driving range - so green was approached from right.
#3 new green is under construction - further back and to the right.  Will not be used for swan song LPGA tourney this year.

Vernon Macan designed the course in 1925, prior to the building of Bonneville Dam upstream. I'm not sure how the water table was back then but the area is old flood plain.  It flooded severely in the forties (Vanport Flood) and many trees died as a result.  I don't know if Vern planted any of the Giant Sequoias that are there now, but they have proliferated nicely.
 
Though Vern's credo is simple,  I do appreciate it.

Slag, the Giant Sequoias    were planted in the '60's.

What are they doing to #4?  And if anything, why?

I know the new tees were built at #8 and #12 because "the course is too damned short."  There are a lot of low handicappers at CECC, hope they enjoy those back tees, I'll never play from back there!

[Jordan Caron]

Jeff- how intact are his courses in Qualicum Beach and Nanaimo?

The QE Park P&P that he did has gone to seed, almost literally, following the strike in Vancouver.  Hopefully they can get it back in shape. 

Will,

I grew up playing Qualicum as a junior and out of the 9 holes there, 6 greens have been re done over the last 20 years with a new holed added in and one taken out.  Number 6 is a par 3 over the gulley and number 2 was a par 3 which now is where the new clubhouse is located.

[Gerry B]

richmond  in vancouver is a leisurely tight tree lined short course until you get to the greens. some fabulous countered green complexes that can drive up a score quickly

[Jeff_Mingay]

Hey Gerry. Hope all's well with you.

The greens at Richmond are insane, aren't they. I've described them before as mini-versions of the turtlebacks at Pinehurst No. 2. Macan built the Richmond course in the early 1950s with very little money at his disposal. He basically built greens and tees, and a few bunkers, over dead flat ground.

[Norbert P]

What are they doing to #4?  And if anything, why?

 The green will be extended back and to the left to wrap around the lake. This will create more pinning options of course, as well as making it a short/medium length par 3.  Not sure of bunker changes.  The new green complex will look and play well - I promise.   

Amazing how big those Giant Sequoias are in just 40+ years.  I call them  Urlachers - cuz there aint no way you're gonna get through 'em. 

[Gerry B]

Hi Jeff:

All is well. 

I was a non resident member there until a few years ago . I have often described the course as Little Medinah meets Pinehust greens. It plays 6700yds par 72 from the tips and looks relatively beningn unless you spray your drives. But in the end you always seem to hand in a bigger score than expected. When the greens are fast and firm there will be some big numbers posted. My favorite green complex is he dog leg par 4  - you are hitting into narrow green with a steep false front  - seen many a 4 and 5 putt there over the years.  Yes ther land there is as flat as it gets - too bad MACAN was not hired in the 50's to do a redo at nearby Peace Portal -which was built during prohibitiion as it straddles the canda us border south of Vancouver. That is an outstanding piece of property

[Ken Moum]

While doing a little researching on A. Vernon Macan I stumbeled upon this quote and wanted to see what you guys think about it.

"Holes should be designed so that the man who pays the bills, namely the average golfer at the club, can have a nice day.”

Thoughts?

I agree.

And for the doubters, I don't see anything in there about ensuring a low score.

I think several of the ODGs had it right. Golfers hate time spent looking for balls in tall grass, and they hate losing balls in the water on hole after hole. I surely do.

Ken

[Jeff_Mingay]

Gerry,

I've driven by Peace Portal with Zokol. He tells me it's a wonderful piece of property, too. And that the course isn't entirely bad.

[Gerry B]

Peace Portal is one of those hidden gems as i have mentioned on previous threads. With  some updating from someone who appreciates classic architecture - the course would be top 50 in Canada on a bad day.

It is short - around 6400 yds (at sea level) - with some strategically placed new tee boxes could be stretched out to perhaps  6600 + yds and I would convert it  to a par 70.

Any idea who designed it? was opened around 1926 or thereabouts.

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