[Paul Richards]

Here is Dismal River's website link:

http://www.nicklaus.com/design/dismalriver/


Check out the photo on the bottom right and click on it to enlarge it.

[John Moore II]

I think that many times, man-made objects can actually add to the character of a golf course. Certainly not a power line or radio tower, but any number of other things can add to character. I have played courses built on old farms that had Grain silos and that really added to the farm feel. Or an old barn on the same type of course. Or the copper flues at Old Works. Any number of artifical things can be put into place and really made to enhance the character. I think to make a blanket statement that they are all bad is wrong. And wouldn't the clubhouse be a man-made obstruction from a visual standpoint?

[Kirk Gill]

A local muni I grew up playing has a major interstate highway right next to it (in fact, I believe that several of the holes were materially changed when the highway was built).

One day I had the rather bizarre experience of walking off the 17th green as a car flew off the highway, flipped over in a spiral fashion, took out a lightpole, and landed on its roof between the 12th green and the 13th tee. A couple guys crawled out of the car, and ran away.

That's a level of man-made object interference I'd rather not experience again.


And while I'm not utterly opposed to the notion of being able to see houses from a golf course, I do object to single-file hole corridors that feel like canyons between walls of housing. The back nine at Lone Tree Golf Club (Palmer Design) is particularly egregious in this respect.

Still, I have to totally agree with Mr. Bonnar (golf courses ARE man-made objects!) and with Mr. Moore - many man-made objects enhance a course...

[paul cowley]

I have a different take on this topic because I am one of the few designers who creates and builds obviously manmade objects as part of the design.....walls, ruins, major earthwork fortifications, ricefields and dikes on a fairly massive scale etc.

 I have no plans to stop, and look forward to future sites that possess the right opportunity to create and incorporate memorable 'objects' that also provide strategy and play interest.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Here is Dismal River's website link:

http://www.nicklaus.com/design/dismalriver/

Check out the photo on the bottom right and click on it to enlarge it.

Paul,

I actually like those windmills, especially when you hear them creaking.

I think they're part of the unique history of the land and add a bit of flavor to the setting.

[Paul Richards]

>I actually like those windmills, especially when you hear them creaking.

I think they're part of the unique history of the land and add a bit of flavor to the setting.


Patrick

I whole-heartedly agree.

However, what is the architectural merit of placing the green directly behind the windmill, or, worse yet, building or moving a windmill directly into the line of play?

Off to the side it is 'charming'. 

In front of a green???

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Dismal and its windmill simply tie the course to its time and place.  The Windmill is archeology where a high tension tower doesn't really project much romance. 

Another example would be Chambers Bay and its sorting bins and the "swingset" artifact.  While their advertising emphacizes "true links golf" what Chamber is really is a tribute to the tough blue collar history of the town where it is built.  Railroad tracks, a pier and industrial relics are the fading romance of Tacoma and Puget Sound. 

What other examples are there of relics that add to design rather than detract from it?

[Wade Whitehead]

What other examples are there of relics that add to design rather than detract from it?

The ruins at Spring Island's Tabby Links certainly evoke emotion and response.

Another observation: At Primland, one barn in a small clearing is visible at a significant distance across a giant ravine right of the second hole.  For the most part, other than the golf course, it's the only indication that humankind has ever been near the facility.  Thought it's early in the round, it's actually reassuring in a strange way.

WW

[Lloyd_Cole]

Is it possible that a power line (perhaps in the distance) is no more offensive to the eye than a series of railroad ties,  or an obtrusive cartpath, or an ugly rainshelter, or a McMansion directly behind a green?

WW

Double W,
Thanks for bringing that up - now you remind me - the very worst thing I've ever seen from a golf course was a particular 'residence' next to #2 at Pinehurst... the single most heinous expression of bad taste I have witnessed in my sheltered life, thus far...

[Jeff Grossman]

I also think the windmill at Dismal is unique and is in my opinion part of the character of the course and history of the property.  The same can be said at Sand Hills with the wind mill is in view from I think the 17th tee.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Lloyd

You mean the one on 7? Pretty bad but if you didn't see the old HOF behind 4 green -- let's just say you don't know what you missed!

Mark

[Lloyd_Cole]

Mark
I can't remember hole numbers. Front nine for sure - it's square footage was easily thrice that of its neighbors combined.

[Paul Richards]

>The ruins at Spring Island's Tabby Links certainly evoke emotion and response.


I was just at Old Tabby on Easter Sunday and after finishing out on the ninth, was able to stop for a bit and join in their Easter Services amidst these ruins.

It was very moving and beautiful.

[JohnV]

Of course, you get the cemetary at Ballybunion which is nicely balanced by the trailer park across the street.  All the RAF bases around various famous Scottish links lead me to believe that the pilots care more about being near golf than being near their enemies.

Sunnyvale Muni might be one of the worst for man made objects.  There is 101 running alongide one side of the course, Highway 237 going right through the middle of the course and the landing lights for Moffett Naval Air Station in the middle of the fairway on 1 par 5.  Play there in the afternoon when the sub hunters are coming back from patrol and it is about as loud as anywhere in golf.

One other loud place is on the front 9 at the Great Blue course at Heron Lakes in Portland on a weekend when the motorcycle or Champ cars are racing at Portland Speedway which is right next door.  I was running a mini-tour event there when the bikes were racing.  The 4th hole is a par 3 with the tee on the dike right above the track.  There would be groups where a guy might get set over the ball 4 or 5 times only to be disturbed by a bike roaring by.  It was hell on pace of play.

[Pete_Pittock]

John,
    I didn't help out with the lap times around Portland International Raceway being about one minute. They got you on the back nine when playing #17. Try playing during the six hour LeMans event.

   No complaints about the man-made objects at Painswick? Anyone?

[Patrick_Mucci]

The bridge from # 10 tee to # 10 green that hovers above the 18th green has to be one...... visually.

I believe it's unique in all of golf that two holes have a suspension bridge intricately entwined in their design.





This has to be one of the great trophies in golf.

[Eric_Terhorst]

#11 216yd par 3. 


What power lines?  This pic was taken in October of last year.

This is a good solid par three.  When later I saw a picture of the 3rd hole at Chicago Golf Club, it struck me that this hole might be a C&C homage to the Chicago GC hole.

#11 green

[John Burzynski]

I am not bothered by the power lines, but they are there.  They wouldn't show in a picture like taken above, they are high up (the kind on those large metal high voltage structures, not telephone poles), you would see them at about 45-60 degrees from horizontal, and even then, to me, they aren't a big deal, but several times hear I have read (and heard from one or two locals) "great hole, except for the power lines".    Interestingly, the Indiana Toll Road borders the north end of the course, but can't really be seen due to a buffer of trees, but you can certainly hear traffic on the road.   

Neither bother me, but I guess some golfers are more picky than others.  I'll take a nice course that is well designed like Warren, even with a bit of encroachment from the real world.  I mean, c'mon, the course had to be located next to campus (it is Notre Dame's course!), it is not like C&C had their choice of land over a one or two county area to choose from.   It would be almost impossible nowdays to locate a course away from power lines, major roads or other pre existing structures. 

[Wade Whitehead]

To the discussion, I'll add:

A course here in Roanoke, Virginia sits across an interstate highway from a mid-size airport.  There are a series of large runway lighting towers on the course, three of which are in play.  A local rule requires that any shot which hits any part of a tower be replayed without penalty.  Two of the towers are situated such that they can be hit from the tee, in which case they can deflect a shot in a variety of directions (including favorable ones).  To require a replay, instead of providing the option for one, makes for an isolated frustration here and there, when a player hits a good shot with a good result but must replay, and brings attention to the existence and placement of the towers.

Point: In some cases, it's possible to improve integratation of preexisting or unavoidable manmades through thoughtful application of the rules.

WW

[Doug Siebert]

In any of these courses you are discussing do the power lines actually come into play?  There is a muni in Cedar Rapids IA where the lines not only come into play, there is a local rule on the scorecard allowing a free replay of the shot if it hits the power lines.  One time I caught the same wire with two consecutive drives!  I think this was on the 7th at St. Andrews.

[Sean_A]

In any of these courses you are discussing do the power lines actually come into play?  There is a muni in Cedar Rapids IA where the lines not only come into play, there is a local rule on the scorecard allowing a free replay of the shot if it hits the power lines.  One time I caught the same wire with two consecutive drives!  I think this was on the 7th at St. Andrews.

Leslie Park, a muni in Ann Arbor has power lines in play.  The local rule is if you hit a wire its a free re-hit, but if you hit the structure it is treated like a tree - tuff.

Ciao

[John Burzynski]

One of the public privately-owned golf courses around here, Whispering Pines in Walkerton, IN, has power lines running across the 3rd hole (I think it is the third), and they have a local rule that if your ball hits the lines you can replay it.   Only time I have ever run into that on a golf course. 

[Jason McNamara]

John, there's a couple of these in Houston, and dozens elsewhere.  At some courses, I believe the local rule is that a shot striking a power line MUST be replayed.

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