[Matt_Ward]

A well seasoned and well versed writer of UK courses mentioned Rye is the toughest course in all of England and only behind Carnoustie for all of the UK.

Be curious as to the comments from others.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I assume he meant relative to par.

For the pro game or for "others"? In summer or other seasons?

The answers to those questions probably have a material impact on the answer.

The case for:
1. Five par 3s to conquer / sub-"regulation" number of par 5s.
2. Challenging green complexes: false fronts, deep bunkers, tricky greens -- and those @!#$%$% "eyebrow" sleepers
3. Holes 6 and 13 nearly inscrutable
4. A handful of par 4s that eat a lot of ground -- 4, 12 and 15 particularly demoralizing for their length; odds high that wind at any given time will render at least one effectively a par 5 for all but the really-best players.

For the pros, though, the course must play too short.  For example, Weir nearly drove 16 when he played there in 2003.

What about Portrush?

Mark

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I think it is a great course but I would not call it the toughest in UK. There is no course that would be the toughest which I can shoot a 74 and 75 on the first two times around on a breezy day. I am not sure I know what is the hardest is but several including Woodhall Spa, Portrush and Turnberry are tougher to me.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tiger

Why do you say Turnberry is tougher?  I've played each course four times and found Ailsa easier.  Not as many par 3s (although 6 is brutal) and 17 is reachable.

Woodhall Spa is tougher from tee to green but I found the green complexes a little easier to negotiate.  Certainly easier to putt.

And 74 & 75 on Rye is +6 & +7.  What time of year did you play Rye?

Mark

[Matt_Ward]

As an FYI -- the man I quoted intially is Jim Finegan.

Clearly scores on a par-68 layout have to be taken into consideration as Mark B indicated in his last post.

I've always been struck by the comment on Rye that the toughest shot faced is the second shot you play from just off the greens there.

Maybe others can add more -- I've not played Rye thus far but it seems clear from the information I have read that the course would easily garner a top ten placement when all UK courses are considered. Clearly, it's overall standing goes beyond just the "tough" element.

Comments ?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Matt

That quote's from Donald Steel -- Rich Goodale's theory notwithstanding!

Regarding that quote and Rye's place in the real world vs Bizarro World (aka "golf course rankings world"), check out this thread:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,27940.0.html

Mark

[Ben Stephens]

The toughest course for me in England is St. Mellion - Nicklaus course! A course built for mountain goats!

The English Open (at St. Mellion) is being brought back on the 2009 European Tour Schedule. It should be interesting how the pros play there after a decade!

Woodhall Spa for me is definitely tougher than Turnberry. I have played Turnberry, Lytham and Hoylake they are nowhere near as tough as Carnoustie. Last year's Open they made the course easier as I noticed some pin positions on certain holes were in easy positions and the rough was made easier not to upset too many rich people!

[David_Tepper]

Wouldn't Royal St. Georges be considered the toughest course in England?

[Ben Stephens]

I have never played Royal St Georges but having seen the latest Open and Amateur there it looks pretty tough and tricky.

[Padraig Dooley]

I'd vote for Royal Lytham, the last five holes into the prevailing wind is brutal.

[Tony_Muldoon]

From memory I believe the nuance in the Finegan quote is that he is saying it is the hardest course to play to your handicap i.e. not the toughest for the flatbellies (like our Padraig), but for the Club golfer without a stellar short game.

So congrats to you Tiger you must have played like a ........    I'm curious if you'd heard the phrase before playing there or if it psycologically toughens the challenge by adding pressure. 

[Matt_Ward]

Tony:

The quote I provided from Jim Finegan was not couched in any sort of regard to handicap or playing abilities. I take it for what he meant.

Gents:

Be curious to those who can really provide this -- does Rye easily make the top ten in the UK ? If so why -- if not why not ?

[michael j fay]

Rye has much less hide to tan than St. Georges but inevitably is a much tougher ectoplasm. Rye is by far the hardest 6.000 yards ever assembled.

[Matt_Ward]

Michael:

You raise an interesting point -- given the lack of length it's possible that Finegan was concentrating on this aspect when stating his view.

Gents:

For those who have played it -- are the range of par-4's encontered that dynamic and diverse from a design standpoint. Given the overwhelming role they play I wonder how the overall par-4's at Rye stand up against any of the other top UK courses?

[Sean_A]

I think for sheer difficulty given similar conditions just about all of the Open venues are more difficult than Rye.  A few other come to mind as well.  However, for classiness, very few of the Open venues can match Rye. 

Ciao

[Mark Bourgeois]

Matt

We really need Mark Chaplin and Craig Disher to chime in.  They know a lot more than me!

Here's what Rye's got, ex the 3s, and including the only par 5 (the 1st) as it in fact may play more like a 4 than the 437-yard third (which sometimes felt like more like a par 5 to me). Distances in yards:

Front

• 481
  
• 437
• 411
• 468
• 450
• 300

Back

• 420
• 324
• 420
• 430
• 458
• 437
• 439

Of course, on a links with no irrigation, these yardages don't tell the entire story.  It is a shorter course in High Summer.

To Michael's point we don't play a course 6,000 yards at a time, we play it one hole at a time.  Because the course has five par 3s, two short par 4s, and just one par 5, that leaves 10 holes to cover a lot of distance.  (Throw in the 222-yard 17th and that's nearly one mile of golf to negotiate in the final four holes against a par of 15.)

Matt, I understand you are a long hitter and so maybe things are different for Padraig and you but for me these holes offered plenty of variety.

I can remember playing each of the holes listed above as though it were yesterday.  I found 8, 10, and 11 the least interesting; 12, 15, 16 and possibly 18 I thought were fantastic.  4 is all-world! (8, 10, and 11 have the weakest relationship to the prominent feature of the course: a long dune.)  12, 15, and 16 form a rough triangle while 4 and 18 run in opposite directions, so: these four holes will play differently no matter the conditions.

In comparison to other top UK courses I've played, the par 4s hold up I think quite well.  It's not as "great" a test of driving as, say, Woodhall Spa, but then Rye's a far more subtle type of test.  It doesn't dictate the test like Woodhall Spa does; you really have to reason back from the greens -- the complexes are fantastic in a sublime way -- and even think ahead several holes to decide how to play the hole in question.  For example, the short 9th: it's a good idea to think about your odds on 12 and 13 when deciding whether to play aggressively.

Another comparison: if I had to pick between Ailsa and Rye, I'd probably go 7 rounds Rye, 3 rounds Turnberry. Certainly no worse than 6-4.  Put a screen up around each course's perimeter and it probably goes 8-2.

Does this help?

Mark

[Paul_Turner]

Matt

As Donald Steel emphasises in his great links book:  all the holes (except  the 11th )  are routed across the, south westerly, pravailing, wind to varying degrees.   So the ball is always being pushed sideways into trouble...

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have played both a couple of times.  Each time the wind was UP.  Rye is tough.  No doubt about it.  The par fours are long and intimidating.  But Carnoustie is the second difficult course in England and Scotland.  Rye is number one in England and Carnoustie in Scotland.  The greens at Carnoustie are hard to hit and difficult to putt.  Rye has more interesting holes and is genius in its routing.

But if I had to choose the most difficult of all in the wind, Royal County Down is the winner.  The first three holes just beat you into submission.

[Larry_Keltto]

Troon, RCD, Lytham, Portrush, Deal, even Porthcawl all seemed tougher to me than Rye.

HOWEVER, I played Rye on a still day in June, the turf was a blinding white, and the course played very, very short -- I've never seen golf balls roll out like that. I'd like to give it a go in the winter.

[Jason McNamara]

I have not played it, but I understand that Western Gailes is a bear.  Thoughts?

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

When I played Rye a couple of years ago, they were in the process of lengthening a few holes.  It should play around 6600 yards these days.  With a par of 68, this becomes a fairly long course.  And I would agree with the one comment that the toughest shots are the up and down shots.  The course is very difficult around the greens.  I have no doubt that the par 3's are the best in the British Iles.  Woodhall Spa and St. Anne's (not Royal Lythem)are not far off but second best.  As far as difficulty, Woodhall Spa is unrelenting.

[Doug Siebert]

Haven't played Rye but I'll note the following to show that those who base their experiences on a small number of times playing a course may not be fairly evaluating their difficulty:

* I've played Turnberry twice, both times with moderate 20-25 mph winds, and shot 77 both times.  The greens and green complexes just aren't that difficult, it seriously can't be on anyone's list for toughest course.

* I've played Prestwick twice, both times in fairly strong 35-40 mph winds, once the day before a 77 at Turnberry the other time the day after.  I shot 95 and 102.  It plays tougher than Turnberry for me, but probably not quite so tough as my scores indicate

* I've played Caroustie twice, and shot 49-38=87 on a day with moderate 20-25 mph wind, and shot 85 on my return visit with it pouring rain for the first 15 holes (the only time my caddie has really earned his keep in my book....he kept my grips dry!)

[Rich Goodale]

Matt

Finnegan is just exercising the writer's right to hyperbole.  Rye is in my world top-10 in the following categories:

--overall golfing experience
--clubs I would like to be a member of
--courses that are fun to play
--venues for the President's Putter
--winter golf

It might make it into the top-10 English courses, but I haven't played enough of the non-Open rpta ones to comment intelligently.  Of the ones I've played I'd rate it above Alwoodley but below Deal.

As for toughness, any top links course can be nearly impossible when played in a combination of heavy wind and highly tuned fast and firm conditions.  Because of its layout along ridges and its cross winds, Rye probably punches above it's weight in this category, but it is nothing compared to Sandwich or Lytham, say, each of which is not just tricky but also long.

By all means play Rye when you get the chance, but it will be putty in your hands, Pardner.  Next time you see Finnegan tell him to wake up and smell the coffee!

Rich

[Mark Bourgeois]

That's C-4 putty, Ricky!

It's fair to discount the winds but as far as conditioning goes (outside summer) anything goes.  Are people comparing challenges of Rye's medal tees to the championship tees on the Rota courses, and if so, is that the right comparison?

Mark

[Steve Kline]

Haven't played Rye, but based on Tiger's methodology Troon can't be very difficult as I shot even the first time around (a mild wind)from as far as back as they let me play it (not the Open tees though). We played Turnberry in substantially more wind than Troon but it still seemed harder to me - escpecially the stretch from 3 through 8 or so.

Not all of the Rota courses can be easier than Rye. TOC is one easy golf course to me. I've played pretty poorly both times and shot 78 (in a lot of wind) and 74 (generally calm but the last of 11 rounds in 6 days and I carried my bag for the first ten so I was dog tired). Of course they don't let you play it from very far back.

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