[Matt_Ward]

Michael D:

Get to VV -- you won't be disappointed -- it's a better deal and golf option than Troon North which is just a few miles back on the same road.

Ryan:

Sean said the following, " This course needs a bit of attention to detail to make it blend far better into the surrounds." That's a commentary on the course in my mind. There's attention to detail -- the problem is that someone who only views photos won't really get it by only commenting from just photos. Photo analysis is like making defintive comments in looking at a food dish. One needs to put the food in one's mouth in order to really understand just what it is.

Another thing, I can name plenty of revered courses in GCA where the fall-offs happen and people are gushing / falling overthemselves with glowing accounts. Nothing wrong with that at all -- would you think it's best to have high rough or its equivalent off to the sides? Falloffs make iron play much more specific and precise. It allows recovery for the weaker player but doesn't give an automatic chip'n putt out for the better player. That's a smart marriage in my mind.

There are a few holes at C&C's Saguaro layout at We-Ko-Pa which do something similar and people fawn over that layout. Candidly, VV is a better overall layout from start to finish but so much of the "celebrity" aura is what too many people on this site subscribe to.

Ryan, people can wing comments from the deep left fields all they want until their fingers drop off their hands. My point, in the event you missed it -- which you did -- is that how something "looks" can be done from the comforts of your living room chair -- the real NUTS AND BOLTS analysis comes from how it "plays" and that can't be done via the former alone. Good design is not just an art element - it's about a functional one as well.

Another item -- the so-called "cleaness" of the course. There's plenty of natural intrusions that allow for the desert and other items of interest to interject themselves with the round when playing VV. Maybe you can provide a good example of courses in the desert that are not as "clean" so that I can better appreciate / understand what you meant.

Thanks ...

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen, I know very little of Pinehurst, never been there. I have read that those greens have evolved into what they are today because of years and years of topdressing?

My argument is for the case of variety in green surrounds, so if all of Pinehurst's green surrounds play and look the same, I will tell you I don't like them.

Ryan,

I think we can safely put the top-dressing myth to bed because if this was the case we would have hundreds if not thousands of courses with raised up greens due to top-dressing over the decades.

I do agree its nice to have variety in the green complexes, but just because all of the greenedges are fallaway does not mean that the player will have the same shot over and over again.  With varying distances, pin location, green shapes, etc, the golfer will likely have to be very creative to make thier chips and pitches successful.

And I think this is a good task for a golf course to ask of its players.

[Ryan Farrow]

Kalen, I know very little of Pinehurst, never been there. I have read that those greens have evolved into what they are today because of years and years of topdressing?

My argument is for the case of variety in green surrounds, so if all of Pinehurst's green surrounds play and look the same, I will tell you I don't like them.

Ryan,

I think we can safely put the top-dressing myth to bed because if this was the case we would have hundreds if not thousands of courses with raised up greens due to top-dressing over the decades.

Kaylen, perhaps you are ignoring the fact that not all courses have the same maintinance practices. I have seen photos of old excavated push up greens. Topdressing and bunkers do change green contours over time.

[Andy Troeger]

I really enjoyed my one round at Vista Verde and would certainly go back. While I certainly hope they do well with the houses in the sense of making it a financially viable operation, I do hope it doesn't encroach too much on the course, although I suppose it probably will. That bridge is definitely an eyesore that wasn't there when I played.

I do agree that its one of the best public courses I've played in the Phoenix area. I do put Saguaro ahead of it as I think the variety of holes at WKPS is better with the short par fours adding something VV doesn't have. The par four 7th at VV is a good risk/reward drivable par four, but WKPS has four interesting and different shorter holes that are anything but gimmes. Both are certainly worth playing, and VV is a better bang for the buck.

VV will give you all you want in terms of challenge but its wide enough to make it playable for the wayward driver. The bunker placement is excellent and really makes the better player think about their line and execute correctly. For a wide course, its a good challenge with the driver instead of the "grip it and rip it" mentality. I really liked that aspect.

Definitely recommended!

[Tony Petersen]

Farrow... Step away from the crack pipe. Aaaahhh, just kidding 

I remember the first time I played VV I was hitting the  ball great and was still +4 after 2 holes. Like Ryan said, you end up on the wrong side of the green and it takes some SERIOUS skill to get up & down.

All I'm going to say is play the course. I personally think it is one of the finest layouts in AZ, and, yes, I have played all of them numerous times. Some of it has to do with the rustic feel (the drive in, no shop, beautiful desert-scape, great range with a simple putting green) but the more times I play it, the more genious I recognize in the design. There is some duplicity to recovery shots, no doubt about it, but that seems to be the case at alot of great courses I have played (IMHO).

That's that. If you're in AZ, play the course. I have a feeling that you will have a great time!

[Wayne_Freedman]

Matt,

I agree with  your sentiments 100 percent. It  is a very good, fun, fair, challenging layout.
Lots of room for wild players to spray and make bogeys, but offering specific and demanding lines for the good ones.   VV is a fine example of how wider fairways can work, and work well without forcing significant compromises.

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