[Stan Dodd]

Pacific Grove has 1 forced carry on the par 3 17th.  Not only does it not prevent the ground game it encourages the ground game on almost every other hole.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff, Why do you limit the definition to frontal openings? There are plenty examples where playing the ground game from the sides of targets, and, even some from the rear, is still playing the ground game.

I agree, but think when a Brad Klien or Geoff Shackleford talks about a course allowing the ground game its for an approach shot, not a recovery.  If we want to talk about recovery shots, maybe my next survey will focus on % of green surrounds that have fw grass, rough grass, native grass, sand. 

For now, lets remember that that will be my NEXT survey!

[Mike Benham]

I recall at one time Gib stating that he could play a low bounding approach into all 18 greens at Olympic Lake.

But for mere mortals, I would go:   

- 12 likely
- 2 (7 and 17) possible but not likely
- 4 (8, 13, 15, 18) highly unlikely

[Sean_A]

This is a great thread, its lead me to think that a lot of par 3 holes are pretty much aerial, my home course is a 16/2 although when I thought about Burnhan I had that a 15/3 as well 5/9 & 17 being the aerial, I think 14 has a ground option (although I would not put up a big arguement). St Andrews is 18/0; Prestwick I started getting confused atthe 5th how to categorise, but i guess 17 is for the red corner.

Adrian

You are right, I miscounted - it should be 13/5 with one of the aerials (#12) a tweener.  I am not sure how you can call #14 a grounder.  Its the most severe aerial shot on the course imo!  This is the one I think is a bit too severe and should have a kick in option off the right.  That grade in front of the green is very steep - look at the left of the green for a hint.  For some reason the archie either created (or left ) that dip you see right of the green about pin high.  This essentially cuts the dune off from the green as balls collect in there leaving a nasty chip down the dune.  When you are standing on the tee in gale with a wood in your hand this green is just not forgiving enough.


Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean- I agree 14 is not very forgiving, as I said in my post I wont be putting up a strong arguement re; there is a ground option, although when at 200 yards you are going in with a long iron or hybrid, you are looking to kill it into that right side, anything left or even straight either has to be absolutely perfect or it misses the green and from left up n down is a mirac.
I think 12 has pretty standard ground options, its actually quite hard to fly it at this unless its 7 iron or less. Was the 3rd your other aerial?

[Matt Vandelac]

At Big Fish Golf Club here in frozen Wisconsin, we are 18 for 18.  There might be an angle to a pin from time to time you couldn't get it close rolling it, but you can get it putting.  I think every shot here is solid; as is every single hole.  After we've been allowed to grow in the last few years hopefully we can make a splash this summer.  The conditions are as close to ideal from my perspective (but I have not been overseas yet!).

[Sean_A]

Sean- I agree 14 is not very forgiving, as I said in my post I wont be putting up a strong arguement re; there is a ground option, although when at 200 yards you are going in with a long iron or hybrid, you are looking to kill it into that right side, anything left or even straight either has to be absolutely perfect or it misses the green and from left up n down is a mirac.
I think 12 has pretty standard ground options, its actually quite hard to fly it at this unless its 7 iron or less. Was the 3rd your other aerial?

Adrian

As I said earlier, #12 is quite difficult to reach in the winter without the rollup option, but the slope is so severe that it is more or less not on unless its summer.

No, my aerial deals are all the par 3s & #12.  #3 can be a grounder, but you better know what you are doing cuz of the double dip before the punchbowl green.  I nearly always fly the green and try to get the ball rolling back to the middle of the back slope.  This is the best punchbowl I know of and its down to the double dip.  This pic shows the two dips before the green.  Its the second one which catches people out.  Where that pin is shown its nearly impossible to get close - the only way is to bounce one in and hope for some luck. 

[Adam Clayman]

Jeff, I never considered the recovery shot in my query. I was thinking about holes like the third at Sand Hills,(+BN) and others, where the ground game isn't limited to frontal approaches.
I'm not sure what your survey will yield,(or prove) after the 70+ years of one dimensional dominance, and their copycats, in design.

[Peter Pallotta]

Maybe another way to discuss this is in terms of the "relative advantage" of one approach over another, i.e. to ask not only how many holes allow for the ground game and run-up approach, but whether and how often and in what (various) ways those holes offer a relative advantage to running it up instead of flying it on, or vice-versa. I'd imagine that one way an architect might demonstrate his imagination and understanding of strategic principles is through the degree to which he provides a relative advantage to first one approach and then another over the course of 18 holes, and in the number of different ways he manages to accomplish that....

Peter    

[Scott Weersing]

I decided to look at Rustic Canyon to see if all the holes have ground game potential.

No. 1 does if you play from the left fairway. If not, there is a dry creek in front of the green. So I guess this would score as .5.

No. 4 has a bunker 60 yards in front of the green so you do have to hit over it to reach the green. Another .5.

No. 7 is a forced carry over a dry creek to reach the green. No. 8 is 115 yard par 3 to a plateau green surrounded by rough.

The back nine is meant for a ground game except for the uphill par 3, No. 15 where a ball could roll back down.

So I would say that Rustic is 14/4.

[Brendan Dolan]

I would say that Erin Hills is 13/5 (ground game/No ground game) break down, but with a couple of tweeners.  The most interesting tweener is  the 7th the dell hole.  It has rough in front of the green but the slope is so severe that the ball may bounce on when landing quite short, but could get caught up in the rough leaving a very difficult pitch.  Is the ground game really an option here?  I decided to place it in the preventing the ground game catagory.

Brendan

[Jeff_Brauer]

Adam,

there are a lot of greens where you can get a side bounce on to the putting surface, Redan style.  SH is one of those, but you need to fly it to perhaps 10 yards in front of the hole, don't you?  At least, I did last time I played.

But to run it on, you need area to the front, no? Even the Redan has some area out front, but offset on the uphill side to make the shot work.

BTW, not sure I am trying to prove anything, other than perhaps more modern greens allow the run up shot by design, if not maintenance or daily weather situations to dispute a broad brush statement I read on these boards yesterday.  Perhaps tomorrow I will do a survey disputing your broad brush contention that there have been 70 years of copy cat design and/or to demonstrate how similar golden age designs were copied from each other.  Not to be snide, but isn't there a greater variance in design styles today than ever before?  I think I could make that case!


Peter,

I agree that there are various degrees of influence that my survey can't really quantify, other than to call them "tweeners."  My premise, right or wrong, is that an opening to the green, relatively flat, and as Adam notes, also aligned with the cross slope if necessary (slopes left if main fw approach is right, slopes right if main approach is left edge of the green) allows it to be played. My hunch is that most modern age courses don't vary that much as some suppose in the amount of greens that allow that, since we too often focus on the flaws of some early JN courses (and maybe 50's RTJ courses when every course he built was for a US Open, or at least USO mentality) rather that what's really out there, i.e., the courses we all play every week.

[Jed Peters]

Kyle Phillips designed Morgan Creek Golf and Country Club (Roseville, CA)

6 greens accept run-ups. 12 require an air approach.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Kyle Phillips designed Morgan Creek Golf and Country Club (Roseville, CA)

6 greens accept run-ups. 12 require an air approach.

I hope he reversed that in Scotland!

[Jed Peters]

Kyle Phillips designed Morgan Creek Golf and Country Club (Roseville, CA)

6 greens accept run-ups. 12 require an air approach.

I hope he reversed that in Scotland!

It's my understanding that Kingsbarns accepts the run-up much more than Morgan Creek, however, Kyle's design at The Grove are much more accepting of the approach from the air.

[Jason Connor]

North Shore GC, Orlando by Mike Dasher.

My quick count tells me you can run up to 15 of the 18.  The greens are very contoured and very quick and occasionally crowned.  So a well executed run up can be a great play.  Many of the openings are at slight angles so correct positioning off the tee is required for a run up.  But if you know the green contours and the pin positions, it can be a lot of fun to play the ground game here.

[Steve_Lovett]

Perhaps 11 or 12 of the 18 would well accept a ground approach - although I don't think it is the preferred way to approach any of them, save one or two.  But - around the greens, say within 30 yards, the options are widely varied - and in many, if not most cases a running approach, chip, or even putt is the best way to go.

1923 - Donald Ross, updated/revived in 1996 by Bobby Weed.

[Philippe Binette]

at my home course vercheres GC...

3 greens out of 36 holes,

not all the run up approach are cool though

[Peter Wagner]

Hi Jeff,

Interesting topic and I think you may have to add grass type for some courses to be able to determine if the ground game is a true option.  Riviera is a great example.  Riv has many front openings but because of the kikuyu fairways I have found that a low running shot is not an option.  Riviera's grass is one of it's best defenses.  Most shots landing short of a green are simply rejected by the kikuyu.

I love Riv but it's 99% through the air for me.

I would say my home course is 12 with ground option and 6 without.  Your topic has me wondering about shaving 2 approach areas to maybe swing it to 14 / 4.

Best,
Peter

[Jeff_Brauer]

Peter,

Good point.  A lot of things have to come together for the ground game to really be viable these days.

Of course, the first domino would have to be an equipment ad in Golf Magazine proclaiming balls and clubs that make shots "fly lower" and "with less spin!"

[Bryan Izatt]

Home course built in 1991 by the late Rene Muylaert.  Arguably it's a 0-18 target aerial course.  There may be 6 holes that are tweeners, where there are some openings but soft conditions or ridges or slopes mitigate against a ground game.  Arguably it could be 3-15, but nobody purposely tries to play ground shots on any of the tweeners.

[Steve Verde]

By your criteria. my home course i would say that only 7 of 18 greens encourage the ground game.  5 of the greens that don't are either fronted by a water hazard or bunker complexes.  The others that don't are because of a combination of uphill slopes and generally soft playing conditions. 

The course is a 1924 design and is credited to J. Franklin Meehan but I know that a lot of work and influence came from other people.  There have been no significant modern alterations to my knowledge

[Jamey Bryan]

My course, 1923 Travis routing 1939 Ross renovation, has only 4 holes which MUST be played in the air but another 7 where the slope of the green entry is 10% or greater.  In most cases, front fringe is a very acceptable result (greens average less than 3000 sq ft).  If the question is PREVENT the ground game, the result is 14-4.  ENCOURAGE the ground game is more difficult (maybe 10.5-7.5).


#1  Tweener.  Runup allowed, but discouraged by narrow green opening and false front.
#2  Air.  Severe green and narrow front (no frontal hazard, though)
#3  Tweener. parts have >10% slope fronting, but ground may still be best.
#4  Air.  Frontal opening (narrow) slopes to hazard.
#5  Air.  Severe green and frontal hazard (not original).
#6  Ground.  Reverse redan style 240 yd par 3
#7  Tweener.  Ground allowed, but >10% false front.  Front fringe is a good leave here, though.
#8  Air.  Very severe green and front hazard.
#9  Ground.
#10  Ground.
#11  Ground.
#12  Tweener.  Par 3 w/ very severe green >10% front.  Front fringe is good, though.
#13  Tweener.  Short 5 w/ "Valley of Sin" style approach >10%.  Will accept runup, though.
#14  Ground.
#15  Tweener.  >10% front, but will accept runup.
#16  Ground.  Par 3, ground is not preferred but hole will accept it.
#17  Tweener. >10% front, but will accept runup.
#18  Ground.  Not preferred shot, but will accept.

[David_Madison]

My home course, Governors Club in Chapel Hill, NC, is a 6/12. I will give Jack Nicklaus credit in that two or three holes play better with ground approaches to front pins, and he did a good job with those approaches in that those shots require creativity.

[Andrew Mitchell]

My course Northcliffe is 14/4 in favour of the ground game.  I would think this is typical of the vast majority of non modern UK courses.

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