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Will Wittman

The Ground game vs the Aerial game
« on: March 30, 2008, 12:25:17 AM »
First off I am brand spanking new to the site and I love a good debate. I feel it is the best way to learn new things especially for a stubborn person(ME).  When you throw everything you have at someone and they are able to negate your entire argument with facts and intelligence is an exhilarating and humiliating feeling. 

So to follow that up I have been reading some of these discussions and there seems to be a lot of disdain and venom thrown at the aerial approach to golf.  Imo the ground game is the past and the staunch defenders cant make the shots so they don't like it. Say a course  favors the aerial approach does that make it a bad design.  This is not to say that there is no place for ground golf, as it is a valuable tool for both the architect and the player and it is the smart choice in some cases.  Anyway's if I am way off please set me straight.

John Moore II

Re: The Ground game vs the Aerial game
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2008, 12:38:45 AM »
Will--welcome to the site. I will be gentle in my rebuttal, however, many here will not be so. I feel that the ground game can be played today, its simply that many golfers do not want to be challenged to the same degree that the ground game challenges you. The type of game played also depends on the course. On a course like Tiger won the British Open on in 2006, it is not possible to play an aerial game, the course will not accept it. Balls will bounce on the green like on concrete. With the agronomic practices more used today, the aerial game is more favored and that is why it has come to be more preferred. What many on this site believe is that golf courses should remain very natural and not be pumped with millions of gallons of water per day in order to keep them green. Its not so much the type of game that is prefered, but the type of agronimic practices that are preferred by members of this site. I myself also like firm conditions that force me to think.
--Also, so many modern courses have been designed with only aerial in mind and that again forces the type of agromony that is used, since real firm and fast would not matter, you would still have to fly the ball where you want it to go.

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ground game vs the Aerial game
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2008, 01:05:43 AM »
Will,

Welcome to GCA.

Here are my thoughts on the ground game vrs. aerial game argument:

The game is played with a ball. What does a ball do? A ball flies off the tee, until it lands on the ground. And then what does it do?

The aerial game pontificate would argue that when the ball lands it stops where it lands. But balls, by virtue of the fact that they are round, bounce and roll.

If golf was played with square balls I would sympathize with the aerial game proponents, but balls don't behave that way.

The best golf courses are fields of play that provide obstacles to every dynamic of how a ball in motion behaves.

I was at Augusta on the 15th hole when Arnie, Jack, and the guy from South Africa (I can't rember his name) were playing as a group. Jack was going to lay up and Arnie provoked Jack into going for it. Jack went for it, and he rolled off the back of the green. THE BALL ROLLED TOO FAR. That's what great ground gameholes do to great players.

The ground game is not about equalizing opportunities between lesser and greater players. It is about strategy for all classes of players.

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Ground game vs the Aerial game
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2008, 12:37:44 PM »
Bradley - I thought that was an excellent post. (And thanks too for the string of good posts on the sustainability thread).

Welcome, Will.

Peter

JR Potts

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Re: The Ground game vs the Aerial game
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2008, 01:12:54 PM »
First off I am brand spanking new to the site and I love a good debate. I feel it is the best way to learn new things especially for a stubborn person(ME).  When you throw everything you have at someone and they are able to negate your entire argument with facts and intelligence is an exhilarating and humiliating feeling. 

So to follow that up I have been reading some of these discussions and there seems to be a lot of disdain and venom thrown at the aerial approach to golf.  Imo the ground game is the past and the staunch defenders cant make the shots so they don't like it. Say a course  favors the aerial approach does that make it a bad design.  This is not to say that there is no place for ground golf, as it is a valuable tool for both the architect and the player and it is the smart choice in some cases.  Anyway's if I am way off please set me straight.

You're right on.  Many on here who constantly extol the virtues of the ground game as the only way to play the game are golfers who cannot play the aerial game.  They will cite to Tiger at Hoylake as the evidence that they are correct....yet they forget that skilled golfers can play both....and true golf fans can appreciate the merits of courses that test the aerial game as well as those that test the ground game.  Remember, the winner of the game is the guy who hits it in the hole in the least amount of strokes...whether those shots are on the ground or in the air is of little significance to me.

It is true that the ball may be round and not square.......but the ball has dimples so it can fly.

Welcome to the site.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2008, 01:14:25 PM by Ryan Potts »

Padraig Dooley

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Re: The Ground game vs the Aerial game
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2008, 01:17:35 PM »

You're right on.  Many on here who constantly extol the virtues of the ground game as the only way to play the game are golfers who cannot play the aerial game. 

Just curious Ryan, which do you think is easier, the ground game or the aerial game?


There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Norbert P

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Re: The Ground game vs the Aerial game
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2008, 01:20:28 PM »
 http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=17958 

If you read John Kirk's "Time" treatise, you may forever be a convert.

"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ground game vs the Aerial game
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2008, 02:15:08 PM »

You're right on.  Many on here who constantly extol the virtues of the ground game as the only way to play the game are golfers who cannot play the aerial game. 

Just curious Ryan, which do you think is easier, the ground game or the aerial game?


Not sure.  See, I play golf.  Is it easier to play the left-to-right game or the right-to-left game?

I hit some great shots that stay low to the ground and some great shots that fly in the air.  The converse to that is true as well.

With shots closer to the ground - I would hypothesize that the gains one gets from curtailing ones swing and hitting the ball low is negated by the uncertainty of "the bounce."  With aerial shots, the benefits one gets from taking out the uncertainty of "the bounce" is likely negated by the difficulty of making a full golf swing and achieving solid contact....but then there's the wind.....I don't know.

6 in one...half a dozen in the other.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2008, 02:38:01 PM by Ryan Potts »

Will Wittman

Re: The Ground game vs the Aerial game
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2008, 02:34:08 PM »
First off thanks for the welcome.  

JKM i have never heard the agronomic argument and it makes alot of sense.  But in response when i played Kapalua i hit a drive 380 due to the winds and a VERY generous amount of roll.  Their fairways are as water and as green as any place ive played.  This could be due to something that i dont understand agronomically or that kapalua is just a great course (The best i've played).

Just curious Ryan, which do you think is easier, the ground game or the aerial game?

IMO that depends on how well you can play the aerial game.  I think hitting a towering shot, pulling the string and putting tigerlike controlled backspin on a ball is in general harder than the ground game. Like ryan mentioned the bounce may be uncertain but there is more room for error. Maybe thats my game sneaking into this argument but there it is.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2008, 02:38:24 PM by Will Wittmann »

C. Squier

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Re: The Ground game vs the Aerial game
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2008, 02:48:33 PM »
I really see where Ryan is coming from.  I think is fine for a person to have their preference on a "perfect" golf course, in their own opinion.  But the person who prefers the ground game, but is playing a lush course protected with bunkers in front of greens is going to be sorely disappointed.  I think a well-rounded golfer has the ability to play both the aerial game and ground game, with one caveat.....they know precisely when to do so. 

As for John Kirk's argument in the other thread, I find it very satisfying to hit a shot that takes a long time to unwind.  Though I find it most satisfying when I pick my strategy, no matter what it is, and successfully pull it off with a defined shot.  Hitting a towering 5 iron to a tucked pin is just as fun as bumping a knocked-down 8 iron to a back pin placement.  I play the golf course as its presented to me, not as how I wish it were. 

CPS

Doug Ralston

Re: The Ground game vs the Aerial game
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2008, 03:00:04 PM »
So the real key is to have architects who design courses that offer both options, at different times and at the same time? A good balance of both strategies, and some opportunities to choose between them?

Doug

Will Wittman

Re: The Ground game vs the Aerial game
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2008, 03:04:22 PM »
i agree 100% with Clint. 



So the real key is to have architects who design courses that offer both options, at different times and at the same time? A good balance of both strategies, and some opportunities to choose between them?

Exactly

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ground game vs the Aerial game
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2008, 03:10:27 PM »
Yes, Doug and Will, exactly.  In addition to John Kirk's "time" theory as a great measure of the quality of a golf couse in interest and thrill factor, TEPaul's original thoughts on "maintenance meld" relating architecture and maintenance of conditions to their proper relationship is a great concept whereby different course designs and different geographic locations and terrain and soil conditions all have their own set of appropriate ideal conditions.  It is ideal when the design can accomodate both aerial and ground strategies.  But, due to other factors mostly due to climate and soil, sometimes that just isn't possible...

But, where the super can meet the architect and provide ideal conditions for options of both aerial and ground, then you have something very good.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: The Ground game vs the Aerial game
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2008, 03:57:16 PM »
Welcome, Will.

IMHO the 18 handicapper has the same right to the game as the zero.  Although a course that allows the ground game may also allow the aerial game, the way "aerial design" typically is defined means there's no reciprocity.  Superior designs provide the greatest enjoyment for the greatest number, and so aerial designs are inferior.

This is why personally I find the "strategic school" and links golf the highest forms of design.  Courses on the Rota offer a way around for blue-hairs AND can be presented to offer a test to the greatest golfers on the planet without resorting to the USGA's bag of trickeration. (Carnoustie 1999 being the exception that proves the rule.)

Aerial design does not represent the best test of golfers at the highest levels of the sport, either. Top-tier golfers should be tested for their ability to control the ball after it lands.  Any major lacking this type of test represents an incomplete test, IMHO.

This is why the Open Championship is the greatest test of golf today.

All IMHO...

Mark

PS In addition to the other references I recommend David Eger's interview (particularly towards the end) for his comments on gravity.

Padraig Dooley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ground game vs the Aerial game
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2008, 05:52:58 PM »

You're right on.  Many on here who constantly extol the virtues of the ground game as the only way to play the game are golfers who cannot play the aerial game. 

Just curious Ryan, which do you think is easier, the ground game or the aerial game?


Not sure.  See, I play golf.  Is it easier to play the left-to-right game or the right-to-left game?

I hit some great shots that stay low to the ground and some great shots that fly in the air.  The converse to that is true as well.

With shots closer to the ground - I would hypothesize that the gains one gets from curtailing ones swing and hitting the ball low is negated by the uncertainty of "the bounce."  With aerial shots, the benefits one gets from taking out the uncertainty of "the bounce" is likely negated by the difficulty of making a full golf swing and achieving solid contact....but then there's the wind.....I don't know.

6 in one...half a dozen in the other.


You're right Ryan that's the fun of the game, sometimes the ground game is required, sometimes the aerial. I feel though that the ground game needs more judgement and imagination and lends itself to a more exciting shot.

In general I've noticed that lower handicappers prefer the aerial game, higher handicappers the ground game, which leads to lower handicappers favouring soft conditions and scoring better in them. Higher handicappers score better in firm conditions.

Does the slight aversion to firmer conditions by several low handicappers lead to poorer then expected results for them? I think so, also they probably don't practise the different shots required in such conditions.


There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ground game vs the Aerial game
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2008, 08:34:21 PM »
Imo the ground game is the past and the staunch defenders cant make the shots so they don't like it. Say a course  favors the aerial approach does that make it a bad design. 

Will, Welcome.
Is it your position that you know for a fact that those who prefer the ground game, can't execute the aerial? Or, is it your opinion, for the sake of this argument that you are about to be humbled by?

When you say "a course that favors the aerial approach",  it implies to me, a typical modern design, with little to no open green fronts, or, alternative avenues to attack the hole other than aerial dart throwing. If so, the repetitive nature of the shot demands would IMO make it a bad design.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ground game vs the Aerial game
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2008, 08:39:09 PM »
Anyone who doesn't think there's a place for the ground game in golf today needs to go spend a couple of weeks in Scotland right now!

There are shots on the Old Course where you cannot, absolutely cannot, fly the ball to the green. 

You could if you wanted to, but you'd have a nasty chip back.  ;D

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ground game vs the Aerial game
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2008, 09:23:56 PM »
Unfortunately too many (this site included) base their opinions about golf courses and golf in general on how the pros play the game.  Big mistake!  Spend a few hours watching public golf (or just regular golfers in general) and you will never question the importance of the ground game in golf.  Back to my book. 
« Last Edit: March 30, 2008, 09:25:33 PM by Mark_Fine »

Lloyd_Cole

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Re: The Ground game vs the Aerial game
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2008, 09:26:22 PM »
The really towering high shot with the driver or the long iron is only in the arsenal of the best ballstrikers and even then, not all of them - only the ones with extremely high clubhead speed. I don't have the shot. Cory Pavin doesn't have the shot, nor Fred Funk or maybe even Jim Furyk. So a golf course which repeatedly demands this approach and rewards its execution above all else, like I read early Nicklaus courses did, is a one dimensional course. I think most of us agree that there is a place for all types of courses and not all courses should be playable (enjoyably) by all players, but I must say that the few times I have played  this type of course - I haven't had a whole lot of fun. I'm not good enough. I am good enough, however to play TOC or Pinehurst #2, or Merion.

I love to play shots along the ground - it is fun and requires an inventive brain (just like mine :)). But I also enjoy a well executed pitch. I have no disdain for the pitch shot, in fact I just bought a 62 degree wedge!

My dirty little secret is that much as I love links golf, I'm actually much better at the parkland game...

and Ryan - wasn't Tiger hitting his 4 irons off the tee and then another four iron which landed on the green at Hoylake? I recall a great display of control, specifically distance and trajectory control with the hardest clubs to hit, but I don't recall him bumping onto to many greens... it was still an aerial attack.


Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ground game vs the Aerial game
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2008, 09:30:09 PM »
The really towering high shot with the driver or the long iron is only in the arsenal of the best ballstrikers and even then, not all of them - only the ones with extremely high clubhead speed. I don't have the shot. Cory Pavin doesn't have the shot, nor Fred Funk or maybe even Jim Furyk. So a golf course which repeatedly demands this approach and rewards its execution above all else, like I read early Nicklaus courses did, is a one dimensional course. I think most of us agree that there is a place for all types of courses and not all courses should be playable (enjoyably) by all players, but I must say that the few times I have played  this type of course - I haven't had a whole lot of fun. I'm not good enough. I am good enough, however to play TOC or Pinehurst #2, or Merion.

I love to play shots along the ground - it is fun and requires an inventive brain (just like mine :)). But I also enjoy a well executed pitch. I have no disdain for the pitch shot, in fact I just bought a 62 degree wedge!

My dirty little secret is that much as I love links golf, I'm actually much better at the parkland game...

and Ryan - wasn't Tiger hitting his 4 irons off the tee and then another four iron which landed on the green at Hoylake? I recall a great display of control, specifically distance and trajectory control with the hardest clubs to hit, but I don't recall him bumping onto to many greens... it was still an aerial attack.


Lloyd, an aerial attack reserved for those with very special skills.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2008, 11:07:18 PM by Bill_McBride »

John Moore II

Re: The Ground game vs the Aerial game
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2008, 09:50:32 PM »
Will--many of the best courses I have played fine a way to balance between extra green and firm conditions. When you have money to throw at the course, you can do that.  In general though, courses can't do that, at least not the ones that most on this site and elsewhere play regularly. At my old course, in order to be kept green, it was nearly soggy. When courses have to do that, it makes the aerial game the only play. If courses can be kept green (because thats what the general public wants) and kept semi-dry, then you can have a ground game.
--Back to Kapalua (from what I have seen on tv) it seems to have some fairly significant grades in the fairways and other places which would work to funnel water away from the fairways and greens. That also can help maintain firm conditions.

Will Wittman

Re: The Ground game vs the Aerial game
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2008, 10:32:15 PM »
Imo the ground game is the past and the staunch defenders cant make the shots so they don't like it. Say a course  favors the aerial approach does that make it a bad design. 

Will, Welcome.
Is it your position that you know for a fact that those who prefer the ground game, can't execute the aerial? Or, is it your opinion, for the sake of this argument that you are about to be humbled by?

No i do not know for a fact, it is definitly my opinion.  Also i want to make it clear that i do not dislike the ground approach. I was just curious why some think it the ultimate. I also have never played true links golf so maybe thats what i am not understanding here. 

Here i will give you and example TPC sawgrass #17 is one of my favorite holes in golf to watch.  Granted 2 of them, let alone 18 of them, in a round would be terrible.

John Moore II

Re: The Ground game vs the Aerial game
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2008, 11:13:37 PM »
Will--to a certain sense though, if you play a course with all elevated greens, you are more or less playing 18 holes like that. Both types of golf are good, but aerial forces more of a certain type of golf on people, that not all golfers are able to play. Plus, ground golf was the way the game was originally played, many on this site are 'defenders' of the game in that regard.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Ground game vs the Aerial game
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2008, 11:56:10 PM »
Will--welcome to the site. ...........................On a course like Tiger won the British Open on in 2006, it is not possible to play an aerial game, the course will not accept it. .........................golf courses should remain very natural and not be pumped with millions of gallons of water per day in order to keep them green. Its not so much the type of game that is prefered, but the type of agronimic practices that are preferred by members of this site. I myself also like firm conditions that force me to think.
--Also, so many modern courses have been designed with only aerial in mind and that again forces the type of agromony that is used, since real firm and fast would not matter, you would still have to fly the ball where you want it to go.

I like firm conditions, too, but would like to gently challenge many of your statements after "Will - Welcome to the site!)

IMHO Tiger won the last Open by laying up more than any particular use of the ground game........

Most courses put out 100's of 100's of gallons per night. Very few average over a million, and none averages several million gallons per day, with perhaps the exception of a few desert courses, who are probably now undergoing rationing, a la Palm Desert.

I would love to see a list of the 6000 modern courses with a hole count of how many do NOT have frontal openings to the greens that allow the ground game by design, if not by maintenance practice.  While the normal green might be elevated a few feet, so are most of the greens at TOC.

Should courses remain "natural" rather than have irrigated turf?  Last time I tried it, I got very little roll through either the trees, prairie grasses, or even corn that existed on site before building the golf course!  Believe me, turf probably wasn't natural at TOC either. I recall reading that they tore out gorse to make turf fw.  While it varies in different parts of the country, most combinations of turf and soil just don't allow survival in a deep brown state.  While they might be able to be run with leaner water budgets, in fact, most supers water just to the need of the plant to keep it above critical field capacity.  And yes, they are scared to cut it too close because of the cost and downtime of replanting.  All that said, you can be green and somewhat firm with many turfs.

Lastly, my take on the old readings of the Golden Age are that the ground game was dying a slow death, and some are ignoring that and romantically recreating it in their minds.  The difference from the 1930's is degrees - very few could spin a 3 iron with old equipment, but the shorter irons were expected to hit and bite.   The response was often the "short shot, small green" idea. Thomas wrote that he sloped up short iron approch greens to help the check of a shot.

I believe the march to the aerial game has been going on, because its easier.  Like airlines are safer than Amtrak - once airborn you aren't going to run into anything, while a train has potential bad bounces at every road crossing.  At least until the winds really pick up.  Why would a competitive golfer play the ground game unless he really had to, given greater potential for things to go wrong?

Lastly, the ground game can exist today. It just starts a lot closer to the green front - or side.  While there is no running a shot 50 yards on to the green, I think its just as fun and as much challenge to try to use a green cross slope or slight redan bank to get your shot where it needs to go as it is to run one fifty yards.  As noted, you still need to pick a  spot to fly to and hit it to get the right result.  That can be more fun than picking a spot just in front of the pin or just behind it with even greater spin to aim at, and can help you avoid hazards, so its a good thing.

Good night, gracie.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Moore II

Re: The Ground game vs the Aerial game
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2008, 12:46:57 AM »
Jeff--Try to play an aerial game on Hoylake, you can't do it. How Tiger won was not the point, the course itself was the point.
-Yes, I know courses do not use a million gallons a day, I should have said per week (even then its a stretch) but I was trying to make another point about how some courses think pouring water on the course is a great thing.
--As far as openings, my previous course would be almost totally unreceptive to any ground shots, nearly every green was bunkered in front and elevated. And I have played many courses built from say 1950 until present that fit that idea, and very few from earlier that do.

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