[Mike Hendren]

I borrowered Ron Farris' photograph because it reminded me of a question I've often had of Sand Hills and Ballyneal (neither of which is deficient - don't get me wrong):  Why isn't there a bold, blind Alps hole at either course?  

I can envision having to diagonally carry the bunker in the foreground from the tee, then challenging the hilltop/Mae West (Dolly Parton to yours truly) bunker in the distance for a great 4.5 par hole.  Perhaps an "executive" fairway to the left for the timid second shot. 



Just a thought.

[Bill_McBride]

Liability?

[Mike Hendren]

Bill, 

At an exclusive private club?  The National Golf Links of American has survived such liability all these years notwithstanding the 3rd hole (my favorite in the U. S. of A.)

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike,

If 18 is not an Alps just because the green is not blind from every position on the fairway, then we are too strict in our definitions.

I would also argue that the tee shot on #2 is blind.

Second shot into #9 can be blind.

Here is an example of blindness on the second shot of Bob Huntley on the  Par 4 4th:



How about #11:

[Mike Hendren]

Michael,

Gene Greco has been placing Christian's old army men in that bunker for years to give it a massive appearance.  Everyone who's ever been there, including me, know that bunker is less than five feet deep.  Damn if that doesn't look like Bob however.  Also, if that really was Mr. Huntley, it would likely be his third shot unless he bombed a wayward drive 350 yards. 

I do think the Annie-Over aspect on the approach is what makes the true Alps. 

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike,

I suggested one time that the 4th green could have moved/played in a Alpish way back to a blindish site near the very back 5th tee. The great Tom Doak slammed me for such blasphemy.

So who you going to chose me or Tom for the Hillbilly Tour!

PS. I am hoping our friend Bruce stays lucky this week.

[Tom_Doak]

I was saving the Alps for Old Macdonald.    Unfortunately, I have to save it one more year, as that is the northernmost hole on the course and probably the last one that will get built.

Actually, I would not have been afraid to build one at Ballyneal, if it had fit well into the routing, but I never saw one I was enamored with.  Part of the issue is that the "native" rough at Ballyneal is full of nasty stuff, so if you didn't get over the Alps and down to the other side it might be a lost ball -- and that's not what the Alps is about.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill, 

At an exclusive private club?  The National Golf Links of American has survived such liability all these years notwithstanding the 3rd hole (my favorite in the U. S. of A.)

There are a lot more lawyers today than there were in 1907! 

[Brad Klein]

Sand Hills also doesn't have a Redan, Biarritz, Road Hole, Hell Bunker or Dell hole. They just have a Coore-Crenshaw golf course. They didn't try to copy or emulate anything, just use the land.

[Peter Pallotta]

Brad - re your post above, I've wondered about this -- was it a conscious choice by C&C not to have any of the kinds of holes you mention at Sand Hills? What I mean is, I know they used the land as they found it, but I'd imagine that amongst all the potential holes the land offered them there'd be a Redan or Alps or Biarritz to be found there, even if just accidentally... unless there was a decision beforehand not to look for possible template holes or not to preference them even if found. Can you share some thoughts on that?
Thanks
Peter

[J. David Hart]

Thats what makes Sandhills so great...lay of the land, natural, nothing contrived. As Doak says the situation has to be right, has to have the feel. Golf architectture in the US is usually about making golf easier. An Alps hole is basically "forbiden" as it is to hard for a golfer to understand and score well. Designing around lawyers isn't that hard to do given enough land and a bigger lawyer! I'm all for it! Real golf for real golfers!

[Brad Klein]

Peter, with good architects, nothing is accidental. Everything is intentional.

[Mike Hendren]

Tom Doak,

I seem to recall hearing that a cut was made in the dune approaching the 9th green at Ballyneal.  If so were you tempted to leave it untouched to create a blind up-and-over approach?

Mike

[Kalen Braley]

This looks to be a different view of 18 compared to other pictures I've seen. Is it an optical illusion or just me, but where are you supposed to tee off to...the landing areas look far away and teeny.

[Brad Klein]

View is from back tee on No. 17, the par-3, with 18 behind (tee for that hole is left of 17th green) so you're looking at two holes.

[Kalen Braley]

Ahhh..

Thanks Brad...that was looking like one man sized golf hole which required some great precision off the tee.  Its making better sense now.

Kalen

[Jim Nugent]

Sand Hills also doesn't have a Redan, Biarritz, Road Hole, Hell Bunker or Dell hole. They just have a Coore-Crenshaw golf course. They didn't try to copy or emulate anything, just use the land.

Does any C&C course have any of those holes? 

Other than upcoming Old Mac, does Doak have many or any of those holes? 

Any living architects who consciously look to create the templates? 

[C. Squier]

Any living architects who consciously look to create the templates? 

Or conciously avoid creating them?

[RJ_Daley]

I'd say the reason there are no template or traditional hole designs out there at BallyNeal or SH is that simple fact that the terrain is infinitely diverse and the mind bursts with all sorts of new concepts when walking and planning out corridors for golf.  Why go with something already done, and more importantly, why shape beautiful nature to have something already done and familiar when you can have something first seen and conceived?

While I get Mike's drift about the allure of an "up and over" hole as he speaks; there are actually many angles on the existing holes that were completed by C&C or TD that do have this up and over feature if you are on the right or wrong side of the FW approach. 

Actually, with the land and sand blow out styles that are now part of the modern sand hill golfer's imprint of hole characteristics and designs, I would lean towards the notion that new "template holes" based on design concepts TD and C&C came up with, may be the result if many new 'sand hill' or 'prairie' golf courses spring up there.   Those two design firms are the new pioneers of golf in the sand hills and their design concepts would be the ones to emulate by those that follow. 

But, still the infinite diversity of the terrain suggests that the designer go their own way, and not copy anything... just find routes and strategies that suit that exist there...

[Peter Pallotta]

Brad - thanks. If you understood what I was asking (and I think you did), your answer was helpful and direct, and with enough pith -- or is it pithiness --  to get its own thread

RJ -   as always a very good post. The idea of minds bursting with all sorts of new concepts is very appealing. But the reason I asked was because I assumed that SH offered enough potential holes that C&C wouldn't have had to shape beautiful nature in order to build an Alps or a Redan...if they'd wanted to, or if they hadn't decided beforehand not to.

No value judgement intended there either way; I was just curious about their state of mind/intentions regarding how golf holes could/should be conceived of around the time they created SH.

Peter 

[Ron Farris]

Micheal,
My photo was taken from the road (paved). 

Not having the redan, etc. at Sand Hills and Ballyneal certainly does not diminish their design and actually enhances them IMHO.  The photo I took certainly looks to be an exciting Alps-type hole.  If one knows where the group in front of them is positioned, and the next tee was in a visible spot so one could tell when the green is clear then maybe the Alps type hole could be pulled off on a very private club, especially if it was written into the membership application that the member assumed all liability while playing this and other holes on the golf course.

[David_Elvins]

Does any C&C course have any of those holes? 

Here is the "redan" from Hidden Creek (from Ran's course profile) however I am not sure where else they have used template holes as inspiration.

[Tom_Doak]

I've built a few versions of the Redan, a couple of versions of the Eden, and others inspired by holes Macdonald never saw ... but only when I really thought they fit the site.

I didn't want to build any of those holes at Pacific Dunes.  Jim Urbina could tell you how hard we tried to create something else at #17 before we gave up -- the wind and ground were working against us -- and fell back on the Redan there.  We didn't build any of those holes at Ballyneal or at Barnbougle or Cape Kidnappers (although we did build a Road-style green on a short par-4 at Cape Kidnappers), because in each case the property overwhelmed any templates.

I didn't take the original question to mean why didn't we build an "Alps" hole, but any hole with a big blind shot.  I wondered when I first saw Sand Hills why Bill and Ben hadn't gone for one of those, too; but it's hard to argue with the holes they DID build.  In the end, that's the point.  People who critique golf courses on the basis of what they don't have are missing the point ... that's about a weakness of the critic, and not a weakness of the course.

[TEPaul]

To be honest with you I've just never understood why C&C put that dirt and that rumpled look behind #4 at Hidden Creek. Somehow I think that hole would shot better if they just left the ground alone back there. I do understand that with Hidden Creek they were trying to pay a tribute to early Heathland architecture but I'm not sure if that backdrop look exists behind any healthland green naturally or otherwise. I am more than willing to be convinced of the reason though.

[Matthew Hunt]

I have a vauge idea what an 'ALps but what is the definition and whats the origional? 

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