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Duane Sharpe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bunkers at Merion
« on: March 24, 2008, 11:12:47 PM »
http://turfnet.com/tv_latest.php

Please click on the link for "The bunkers at Merion"

I personally feel that these bunkers are unplayable and a bit undesirable as well.
Drip irrigation?? come on?

 I would be pretty upset to miss the green by 3 feet and not be able to find my ball.

What are some of your feelings to these changes to Merion?

Sharpee
Superintendent
Blackhawk Golf Club
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Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers at Merion
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2008, 12:25:33 AM »
I posted this link a few weeks ago. I highly doubt anybody on GCA is going to agree with you. Those bunkers are some of the most beautiful ever. They were sculpted to imitate nature and if nature puts tall grasses 3 feet from the green on bunker faces then thats what nature gets. I would also think that as a superintendent you would understand the advantage for having drip irrigation on these kinds of bunker faces and UNPLAYABLE????. And one last thing Sharpee.....dont miss the green by three feet, because the guy youre playing with probably didnt. Merion is a very special place and one of the best tests of golf in the country. Dont pick on her.
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Andrew Bertram

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers at Merion
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2008, 06:36:32 AM »
Duane

I could not agree more with Ian. This is beautiful bunkering. Extremely natural.

The shaping and the flow from surround to bukner is excellent. A distinct j improvement.

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Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers at Merion
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2008, 07:16:29 AM »
Here's a debate...

How can you guys say the bunkers at Merion are extremely natural... they just told you the amount of work required, drip irrigation required... they are the fruit of maintenance work, like most bunkers in this world.

They are good looking and unique, no doubt about it, and Merion is a great place...

I love penal and severe bunkers where you can get screwed every once in a while, but to artificially maintain super shaggy edge around the bunkers is a bit over the top... hell the bunkers would look more ''natural'' if they didn't have drip irrigation in them...

That said, if I had to play the course tommorow and prepare for a championship I would take good look at those edges...


Another thing, apparently, the bunkers at Merion were wilder before the renovation, bushes and scottish broom inside them... anybody have pictures of them say in 1995...

thanks.
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Jeff Spittel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers at Merion
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2008, 07:38:45 AM »
Last time I checked, bunkers were intended to be hazards. Hit the ball on the green if you don't want to deal with them.
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Fare and be well now, let your life proceed by its own design.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Bunkers at Merion
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2008, 07:50:10 AM »
Do we really want to go here again?

I feel like someone just yelled "minister" in the middle of a crowded church!  ;)
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Dan Boerger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers at Merion
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2008, 08:13:43 AM »
Miss the 17th green by 3 inches a Sawgrass and you'll never find your ball! I recall reading how someone actually putted their ball OB on the 12th green at Merion. (over the back to Ardmore Ave.)

Seriously, I've never played a course that was a better test of golf than Merion East.
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"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers at Merion
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2008, 08:18:04 AM »
Duane,
Simply stated, they're the best bunkers I've ever experienced.  Completely fair and very challenging. 

I dream of bunker conditions like Merion at my club.
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K. Krahenbuhl

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers at Merion
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2008, 08:39:43 AM »
Quote from: Dan Herrmann on March 25, 2008, 08:18:04 AM
Duane,
Simply stated, they're the best bunkers I've ever experienced.  Completely fair and very challenging. 

I dream of bunker conditions like Merion at my club.

Exactly Dan.  I've never seen a better set of bunkers in my life.
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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers at Merion
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2008, 08:47:17 AM »
There is room for all kinds of bunkers on USA's 15,000 courses, no?

It does explain why more courses don't have these types of bunkers.  Fabric liner (which he seemed to imply was already outdated and will be replaced at the soonest op) drip irrigation.  Hardly natural!

Interesting that the Sheep fescue did best. I have had good luck with it the few times I have used it.
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re: Bunkers at Merion
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2008, 09:28:50 AM »
Mike Cirba:

Threads like this one just show how GOLFLCLUBATLAS.com naturally evolves with new participants who apparently aren't aware that the subject of Merion's bunkers once created on here something akin to WW1 AND WW2 combined!  ;)
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TEPaul

Re: Bunkers at Merion
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2008, 09:32:49 AM »
"How can you guys say the bunkers at Merion are extremely natural... they just told you the amount of work required, drip irrigation required... they are the fruit of maintenance work, like most bunkers in this world."

Phillipe:

I don't think anyone on here has ever said the present bunkers of Merion ARE natural. The idea is simply to make them LOOK natural.

The difference, by the way, is one of the primary tricks and primary keys of all golf course architecture!  ;)
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Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re: Bunkers at Merion
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2008, 09:53:33 AM »
Quote from: MPCirba on March 25, 2008, 07:50:10 AM

Do we really want to go here again?

The best way to go there again is to retrieve the old thread.[/color]

I feel like someone just yelled "minister" in the middle of a crowded church!  ;)

Duane,

You're not alone in your concern/comments/criticism.

When the bunkers were first constructed, TEPaul, myself and others examined the bunkers.

Our conclusion, as I recollect it, was that the tops or wrap around portion would take an inordinate amount of maintainance and present problems in the future.

The bunkers also appeared to have a bathtub like configuration that seemed to make it difficult for golfers to get in and out of them.

Lastly, the bunker woll or liner showed early signs of deterioration and failure.

We thought that visually, they would probably improve with age, but, from a maintainance perspective, they'd present challenges.

Those vigorously defending those bunkers have probably never seen them.

Hang in there Duane and don't retreat. ;D
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TEPaul

Re: Bunkers at Merion
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2008, 10:10:36 AM »
Patrick:

That is a surprisingly cogent and accurate revue, particularly coming from you. Way to go---your accuracy percentage just shot up to around 3.4%!

The bunker faces of Merion (grass and sand juxtaposition) seem to be going through something of a new and intentional "evolutionary" process ;) born of maintenance practices as we speak.

In the last few years the grass surrounds got a little hirsute just as I have over the winter and are expected to have a bit more of a conservative hair-style in the coming year or so.  ;)
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Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers at Merion
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2008, 11:05:41 AM »
If I understand correctly, the issue is not with the look as much as it is the playability of the surrounds.
 What strikes me as odd is, these bunkers surrounds are all screaming at the golfer, "avoid me or pay the price".
Now, it would appear the fairness card is being over-played. In other words, those who find them don't like the price and are looking for someone else to blame for their unpredictable lie.

 
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers at Merion
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2008, 11:10:00 AM »
"I have total disregard for grass."

"We'll kill grass before we compromise playing conditions at Merion"

I love it! Good on Matt!
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Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers at Merion
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2008, 11:27:35 AM »
"You're better off in the bunker than in the faces."

Why do these faces get a pass when Augusta National Golf Club gets lambasted for its half inch of rough.   GCA.com is nothing if not provincial.

Don't give me the "architectural integrity" response, please.

Instead of the White Faces of Merion, perhaps we should go with BHAF - big hairy audacious faces. 

If Merion is as great as touted (which I'm betting it most certainly is) aren't the BHAF's a unnecessary gimmick?

Mike

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Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers at Merion
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2008, 11:29:43 AM »
Should what we now dub as "The Thread" be mandatory reading before anyone is given the secret handshake and allowed to post on GCA.com?   ;D  ;)
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Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers at Merion
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2008, 11:46:40 AM »
Adam,

Can't you see yourself yelling "get in the sand?"

Mike
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Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers at Merion
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2008, 12:28:46 PM »
Quote from: Duane Sharpe on March 24, 2008, 11:12:47 PM
http://turfnet.com/tv_latest.php

Please click on the link for "The bunkers at Merion"

I personally feel that these bunkers are unplayable and a bit undesirable as well.
Drip irrigation?? come on?

 I would be pretty upset to miss the green by 3 feet and not be able to find my ball.

What are some of your feelings to these changes to Merion?

Sharpee
Superintendent
Blackhawk Golf Club

Duane:
The entire maintenance plan at Merion changed over the years.  I was familiar with the course when I was a teenager and the bunkers were not like they are today. 
You cannot find golf balls with the way Merion is maintained today.
Looks like they are trying to look like a seashore course.
"MERION BY THE SEA".
I agree with Patrick and TEPaul.
Best
DAve
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JohnH

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers at Merion
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2008, 01:00:08 PM »
What's fair for one is fair for all...
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TEPaul

Re: Bunkers at Merion
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2008, 01:08:47 PM »
"I agree with Patrick and TEPaul."

Dave:

It is extremely rare for any man to ever have the opportunity to say that!  ;)

A happy Spring to you, my friend.
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Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers at Merion
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2008, 01:13:23 PM »
A question for Duane...

you have long grass around the bunkers at Blackhawk, how do you maintain them....


I'm not against Merion effort on bunkering, and I think they are great, but my point is that I don't know if it would be in the interest of the game that every course start putting drip irrigation in every bunkers....

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JohnH

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunkers at Merion
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2008, 01:54:34 PM »
Quote from: Philippe Binette on March 25, 2008, 01:13:23 PM
A question for Duane...

you have long grass around the bunkers at Blackhawk, how do you maintain them....


I'm not against Merion effort on bunkering, and I think they are great, but my point is that I don't know if it would be in the interest of the game that every course start putting drip irrigation in every bunkers....



Not Duane, but I would question the economic feasibility of the project for most courses.  I would surmise that the goals of Merion are not congruent with a vast majority of courses anywhere, nor the maintenance budget.  A bit over the top?  Maybe, but I have never been there, so...

My uninformed opinion is that the historic course gained worldwide acclaim without drip irrigation for over 80 years of it's existence.  Why now?  Maybe something that will happen in 2013.  Not a gripe, just an observation.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2008, 02:00:28 PM by John Hibbs »
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TEPaul

Re: Bunkers at Merion
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2008, 02:10:50 PM »
"My uninformed opinion is that the historic course gained worldwide acclaim without drip irrigation for over 80 years of it's existence.  Why now?"

John:

The reason is that never in the history of Merion did the bunkers have the amount of grass on the bunker surrounds, particularly over the top of their faces, they do now.
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