Rating the So Cal publics

[rjsimper]

Palos Verdes has been semi-private since, I believe, WWII.  The story I heard is that the club was hurting financially and the city of Palos Verdes Estates offered some help under that condition.

I have seen no verification of this, but I've heard it from multiple places.  The policy is available on the website, but I think it's something like M-Th after a certain time public play is allowed.

Growing up in the area I could play within 3 hours of sunset for $4.50 for 9 holes on weekdays and $6 on weekends...and this wasn't THAT long ago so that tells you what kind of deal it was.

At $210 it doesn't qualify for "Bang for the buck" supremacy, but when comparing PVGC's highest rate at $210 versus Ojai's highest at $180, it's a tough battle.

[David Stamm]

Palos Verdes has been semi-private since, I believe, WWII.  The story I heard is that the club was hurting financially and the city of Palos Verdes Estates offered some help under that condition.

I have seen no verification of this, but I've heard it from multiple places.  The policy is available on the website, but I think it's something like M-Th after a certain time public play is allowed.

Growing up in the area I could play within 3 hours of sunset for $4.50 for 9 holes on weekdays and $6 on weekends...and this wasn't THAT long ago so that tells you what kind of deal it was.

At $210 it doesn't qualify for "Bang for the buck" supremacy, but when comparing PVGC's highest rate at $210 versus Ojai's highest at $180, it's a tough battle.

Wow, Simps! That was a hell of a deal! And you're right, when comparing PVGC vs Ojai in terms of dollars, that's a tough call. My initial thought would be PVGC, but I'm not certain. PVGC was a very pleasant experience and I really liked the course.

[Allan Long]

Wow! I really like Palos Verdes, but $200 I think is a little steep. Makes me glad for SCGA and Jr. golf events and reasonable fees. Maybe they can justify the fee for the opportunity to play a Thomas gem.

Speaking of gems, I'm going to throw out Meadowlark in Huntington Beach. Although it is very short, it's the rare chance to play a public Max Behr design. Montebello has been altered quite a bit so I don't know how much original Behr is left there.

[David Stamm]

Wow! I really like Palos Verdes, but $200 I think is a little steep. Makes me glad for SCGA and Jr. golf events and reasonable fees. Maybe they can justify the fee for the opportunity to play a Thomas gem.

Speaking of gems, I'm going to throw out Meadowlark in Huntington Beach. Although it is very short, it's the rare chance to play a public Max Behr design. Montebello has been altered quite a bit so I don't know how much original Behr is left there.

I'm so glad I'm not the only one that finds Meadowlark charming. Honsetly, there are some things on that course that you just typically don't see in So Cal architecturally.  There is some wild, cool stuff there.

[Stan Dodd]

Bang for the buck...Hesperia.  Good greens and a challenge.

[rjsimper]

Wow! I really like Palos Verdes, but $200 I think is a little steep. Makes me glad for SCGA and Jr. golf events and reasonable fees. Maybe they can justify the fee for the opportunity to play a Thomas gem.

I suspect it's more that they want to discourage outside play...it really is kind of a technicality that I count it as public, but truly anyone can play regardless of recipricocity or anyone calling on your behalf (unlike Riviera, which likewise discourages outside play with their $500 or whatever it is price tag, but still requires reciprocal play or a pro to make the introduction).  PVGC, I'd guess, is 98% member/guest play.

[ed_getka]

Wow! I really like Palos Verdes, but $200 I think is a little steep. Makes me glad for SCGA and Jr. golf events and reasonable fees. Maybe they can justify the fee for the opportunity to play a Thomas gem.

Speaking of gems, I'm going to throw out Meadowlark in Huntington Beach. Although it is very short, it's the rare chance to play a public Max Behr design. Montebello has been altered quite a bit so I don't know how much original Behr is left there.

This is one of the  payoffs for hanging out on this site. I didn't know about Meadowlark being a Max Behr that is available to the public. Thanks for the tip Allan.

[R_Paulis]

I am also perplexed why Sandpiper and Torrey rank high. Incredible views on a number of holes but only a handful of "worthy" holes on each course. Conditions on both courses can be extremely variable.

[Richard Boult]

Seems many on this site don't like Sandpiper (or Ty's other course, Rancho San Marcos).  I live an hour away from each, been playing 3 years now, and still haven't played either.  About time I do.  Glad to see La Purisima is appreciated and that someone added Monarch Dunes to the list.  I really enjoy Marshallia Ranch too, located at Vandenberg AFB near La Purisima - now open to the public.

[R_Paulis]

La Purisima is vastly under-appreciated by a great many people. I'd say it can rightly lay claim to a top three public position among the various open to the public courses I've played in the region. Play there in any afternoon when the wind picks up and you'll have all you can handle.

If difficulty was the litmus test for quality, then I'd more likely agree with you on this, but then you'd have to include the Babe on your list as well.

La Purisima is a course that I LOVED the first time I played it, but since then have grown to think less of.  It's still a good course, and better than it's sister course (Hunter Ranch) but I think it benefits most from good conditioning and a remote and beautiful setting. 

I don't remember the hole numbers, but the interior holes of the back nine are borderline awful - I think 13 and maybe 15 (the par 5 along the ridge) are horrific holes, and the tee shots are mostly an awkward bunch with several forced layups.  I think 4, 8, 9, 11 (dogleg right) and 17 are excellent holes. 

I agree with you that it's underappreciated by many, but I do also believe its overappreciated by a fair share of people too.  It's a good, solid layout that I wouldn't send someone visiting from the east coast to unless they happened to be planning a night in Solvang or Buellton.

The above post got me thinking LaP maybe it's not as great as I remember. I agree holes 14 and 15, and maybe 3 and 4 might be considered forced "layups", but are forced layups a bad thing? Sure, two subsequent sets maybe a bit sketchy, but why must a par 4 or 5 require the use of a driver off the tee. I'll give you that hole 14 requires no more than a mid iron that must be carefully placed. Depending on the wind, hole 15 often demands the use of a long stick.

You're right about the conditions and I might add the reclusiveness of the course might get the course bumped up to a top list. LaP's shortcomings are not that negative to keep it off my top five SoCal favorites.

[rjsimper]

La Purisima is vastly under-appreciated by a great many people. I'd say it can rightly lay claim to a top three public position among the various open to the public courses I've played in the region. Play there in any afternoon when the wind picks up and you'll have all you can handle.

If difficulty was the litmus test for quality, then I'd more likely agree with you on this, but then you'd have to include the Babe on your list as well.

La Purisima is a course that I LOVED the first time I played it, but since then have grown to think less of.  It's still a good course, and better than it's sister course (Hunter Ranch) but I think it benefits most from good conditioning and a remote and beautiful setting. 

I don't remember the hole numbers, but the interior holes of the back nine are borderline awful - I think 13 and maybe 15 (the par 5 along the ridge) are horrific holes, and the tee shots are mostly an awkward bunch with several forced layups.  I think 4, 8, 9, 11 (dogleg right) and 17 are excellent holes. 

I agree with you that it's underappreciated by many, but I do also believe its overappreciated by a fair share of people too.  It's a good, solid layout that I wouldn't send someone visiting from the east coast to unless they happened to be planning a night in Solvang or Buellton.

The above post got me thinking LaP maybe it's not as great as I remember. I agree holes 14 and 15, and maybe 3 and 4 might be considered forced "layups", but are forced layups a bad thing? Sure, two subsequent sets maybe a bit sketchy, but why must a par 4 or 5 require the use of a driver off the tee. I'll give you that hole 14 requires no more than a mid iron that must be carefully placed. Depending on the wind, hole 15 often demands the use of a long stick.

You're right about the conditions and I might add the reclusiveness of the course might get the course bumped up to a top list. LaP's shortcomings are not that negative to keep it off my top five SoCal favorites.

I'd agree with your last statment, except to substitute 10 for 5...it was the same thing for me, though - the first time I played I thought WOW! and then after that each time I played it went down a little in my book.   Forced layups aren't inherently awful, but on a course where land/space was not at a premium and the possitibilities look to have been vast, it's a little odd. 

Even the 10th hole could be called a forced layup, and at 460 or something dead uphill, that never sat too well with me.  I think the creek crosses at about 260 at it's closest point and runs diagonally to maybe 290?  Either way, the safe play is going to leave you 200+ to a 3 or 4 tiered green.

[Jfaspen]

Can anyone explain the reason for the variance on the TPC Stadium course?  Some people rank it as # 1, others as dead last.  Is it the difficulty of the track or something else.  I'm planning a Palm Springs trip for this summer that would include the Stadium and I'm curious to hear some more in depth thoughts.

Jeff

[Pete Lavallee]

Jeff,

I don't think the Stadium Course is overly difficult, if you play from the tees apropriate for your game. Playing it back to see what the Tour Pros see is proboably why people come away with a bad taste in their mouth. The Mountain Course is just as good n my opinion; if you're at PGA West don't miss this one.

[Matt_Ward]

Jeffrey F:

Pete Dye did a better job with the original TPC Sawgrass. I concur with Doak's comments in "Confidential Guide" that the Florida layout represents the better first thinking than the repetitive effort you see with PGA West Stadium.

In addition, I've just read, that Pete plans on doing a makeover of some sort with the Stadium layout because frankly it's getting a little tired beyond the well known penchant for being a ball buster if played from the incorrect tees.

Jeff, as I said previously, you do have other solid golfing options in the immediate Palm Springs area that are available to the public. Try Desert Willow's Firecliff Course or Shadow Ridge - both are in Palm Desert. The former is a good collaborative effort from the hands of Hurdzan, Fry and John Cook. Shadow Ridge is well done from Curley, Schmidt and Nick Faldo.

The Mtn layout that Pete mentioned is also a worthy choice.

Ryan S:

Couple of quick replies to your comments on La Purisima.

La Purisima is not just great because of sheer difficulty. The layout is blessed with a good site and more importantly, architect Robert Muir Graves didn't go off in a manner by which he would overdose the facility with plenty of architectural gimmicks and the like. La Purisima, for me at least, provides enough elasticity for any type of player -- there's more than sufficient width for the stray and high handicap types and yet it really bears down on the better player intent on trying to come up with a good score.

To think La Purisima benefits solely from "a remote and beautiful setting" signifies for me that your eyes weren't really paying attention to the variety of artful holes provided and the array of shot execution challenges that are consistently provided.

If anyone believes Sandpiper or Torrey Pines (either of the two layouts) is ahead of La Purisima then it's likely because of the ocean effect. Place an ocean backdrop on the dance card of La Purisima and the layout in Lompoc would be even better appreciated.

I also don't concur with your thoughts on the middle holes being "borderline awful." If anything, the real downer at La Purisima is that the final hole is really anti-climatic. I was hoping for so much more to cap a layout that was utterly refreshing for its overall consistency prior to that point.

One other thing -- anyone who can score low at La Purisima when the afternoon winds pick up is really showing control of their golf ball. I'll stand by what I said -- for me, the layout is among the 3-4 best public you can play in all of SoCal.

[Matt_Ward]

One other thing on La Purisima -- only one par-4 on the layout exceeds 437 yards and it still is a relevant layout even with all the technology elements thrown into the picture.

If the course were closer to LA it's overall exposure and fanfare would be even greater IMHO.

[Jason Topp]

Jeff:

Play the stadium course from a reasonable set of tees.  It is very similar to Sawgrass and probably not as good but I found the greenside shots to be much more difficult and therefore very interesting.  Among a zillion desert housing courses it stands out as a truly unique test of golf.

[R_Paulis]

One other thing on La Purisima -- only one par-4 on the layout exceeds 437 yards and it still is a relevant layout even with all the technology elements thrown into the picture.

If the course were closer to LA it's overall exposure and fanfare would be even greater IMHO.

Well written thoughts on Purisima Matt.

Ryan - I do not think of number 10 as a forced layup - it could be described as a great strategic hole. Keep it right off the tee and as long as you can keep your drives below 290, you have the best angle at a challenging distance. The hole plays with the wind and if you're playing after 12 noon there's the option to make it across the stream.

Here's my top five for SoCal publics:

Rustic Canyon
La Purisima
Barona Creek
Olivas Links
Soule Park
Hidden Oaks

[rjsimper]

Maybe I am mis-remembering the 10th hole - it's been a couple of years since I played it.

I still think that green is too severe for a hole of that length, especially playing uphill.  As I said, I don't dislike the course, but I think it's a case of too much love for a generally underappreciated course resulting in it being overhyped by the few who do know it. 

[R_Paulis]

Maybe I am mis-remembering the 10th hole - it's been a couple of years since I played it.

I still think that green is too severe for a hole of that length, especially playing uphill.  As I said, I don't dislike the course, but I think it's a case of too much love for a generally underappreciated course resulting in it being overhyped by the few who do know it. 

Agreed that the #10 green is challenging for a long hole. Thinnest and perhaps most contoured on the course. Green is higher than tee but 10 is not really an uphill hole. Par is great score for second toughest hole on the back.

If the wind is blowing, #11 and maybe #12 is where you can make up a shot but that's about it on the back for me. I hang on hoping to shoot even and make something happen on the last hole.

[Jfaspen]

Thanks all for the advice on stadium.  I think my friend and I are going to stay at La Quinta and do their "All you can golf package" for the firesale rates that you get in palm desert in August.  On the way in, I think we're going to do Shadow Ridge.  In the back of my head, I have the rough sketchings of another Palm Springs Summer trip where we do the public courses unaffiliated with a resort. 
I'll be sure to post my opinions of the stadium and mountain courses when I return!

Jeff

[David Stamm]

Thanks all for the advice on stadium.  I think my friend and I are going to stay at La Quinta and do their "All you can golf package" for the firesale rates that you get in palm desert in August.  On the way in, I think we're going to do Shadow Ridge.  In the back of my head, I have the rough sketchings of another Palm Springs Summer trip where we do the public courses unaffiliated with a resort. 
I'll be sure to post my opinions of the stadium and mountain courses when I return!

Jeff

Jeffrey, I would also recommend Desert Dunes, a solid RTJ, Jr. design. Just make sure you do it in the morning as the place is a wind tunnel in the afternoon!

[Matt_Ward]

Ryan:

With all due respect, I keep reading your general comments (without any real details I might add)) concerning La Purisima and you couch it in such terms with the following statements ... "a case of too much love for a generally underappreciated course resulting in it being overhyped by the few who do know it." 

Where's the beef in the comment saying "too much love?"

Ditto the next vague and broad brush comment of the course being
"overhyped." You lost me with that. As an FYI -- I've played La Purisima on three (3) different occasions encompassing a 10-year time frame.

I'll be the first to admit that La Purisima doesn't have all the bells and whistles that plenty of other public SoCal layouts have but when tested against various levels of players -- most notably tour qualifiers -- the course has held up very well.

As I mentioned previously, there is only one par-4 beyond 437 yards and when you look at how technology has altered / changed the game since the course first opened over 20 years ago that says something in my book.

I did mention the lame closing hole. It's merely a footnote on what you experience for the first 17 holes.

La Purisima proves the point that average players can still make bogey per hole and find their ball without roughing them up through a whole series of various minefield design propositions through the likes of H20 hazards, OB, high rough and other such contrivances. 

R Paulis, is quite right IMHO - even if one were to throw La Purisima under a big time microscope the overall layout still demands a high level of execution of shots for nearly all the holes. I've played a good cross section of other public layouts in SoCal and frankly can't see how the layout would miss out on any top five public listing for the greater region.

[Jason Topp]

Thanks all for the advice on stadium.  I think my friend and I are going to stay at La Quinta and do their "All you can golf package" for the firesale rates that you get in palm desert in August.  On the way in, I think we're going to do Shadow Ridge.  In the back of my head, I have the rough sketchings of another Palm Springs Summer trip where we do the public courses unaffiliated with a resort. 
I'll be sure to post my opinions of the stadium and mountain courses when I return!

Jeff

Have a great time Jeff! 

I think Silverrock is on their list.  I liked it althogh some here have criticized it. 

I did not like the Norman course - it was like playing a series of bowling alleys with rounded bumpers in each gutter.

[Tim Leahy]

Jeff,
If you're playing in Palm Springs area in August, bring alot of sun block and ice water. Even with Global Warming providing wierd weather conditions, be prepared for 100 degr temps by 8am and 120 around noon. Enjoy!

[Jfaspen]

Jeff,
If you're playing in Palm Springs area in August, bring alot of sun block and ice water. Even with Global Warming providing wierd weather conditions, be prepared for 100 degr temps by 8am and 120 around noon. Enjoy!

Yea.. I remember from the KP event we had down there.  I also remember my birdie on the 36th hole of the day where we teed off in 95 degree heat and finished by the pro coming out to us on 18 and saying "what the hell are you guys doing out here, it's 115!" 

Jason, that's great if SilverRock is part of it, that place looked pretty neat.  I'm going to play the Norman course to be able to say I played it, but I think any repeat rounds will be on the Stadium or the Mountain course.

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