[David Wigler]

Having just been blessed with my first opportunity to play Cypress Point (Guys involved - I will never be able to say thank you enough) I have reached two conclusions.

1. Cypress is the finest golf course ever built.  It is perfect.  The bunkering is phenomenal.  The green complexes are brilliant and extremely varied on slopes and internal contours.  The fit from tee to approach is the best I have ever seen.  The routing is ingenious and…

2. #16 at Cypress Point is the perfect golf hole.  What else is needed?  The setting is inspired.  The hole offers numerous options.  The green complex is awesome.  It truly blew me away.  I am not a good enough writer to describe the emotions and feelings the course and #16 generated.

Is there another hole in the country that even belongs in the discussion?

[JakaB]

#2 at Pinehurst #2 is a greater hole to be played by men considering God had very little to do with the design.   The greatest game played by man should hold as its chalice sites improved by men not sites mearly on loan from forces greater than us.   I would go so far to say that Pinehurst was designed while Cypress was found.

[ed_getka]

David,
  I agree with someone's description of Cypress Point as being the "Sistine Chapel of golf". I agree with your description of #16 until you get to the green complex. I don't remember anything other than a large round green with a few bunkers around but nothing stands out in memory. This could easily be because of the overwhelming awe and joy one has their first time there, but what makes the green complex awesome in your opinion? I'm not trying to bust your chops here, I would really like to know.

Also, what did you think of #10 and what would you say are the strategic features of the hole?

I hope you played great. I know you had a great time

[Mike Clayton]

I played Cypress 2 months ago and was astounded at how soft the greens were.
From an opening half way down the path from the 15th tee on the way to the 16th I hit a 2 iron and played it as a short par 4  -it is a great hole from there.
And it is a wonderful par 3.

[Joel_Stewart]

Golf Digest ranked it as the best par 3 in the world but personally I don't agree.  If you take away the Ocean is it still a great hole?  I think 15 is a better par 3 and think #9 is maybe the best hole on the course.  

[Justin_Zook]

While not a par 3, what about the 14th at St. Andrews?  What about the endless strategic possibilities of that hole!  

[Gene Greco]

The 16th hole at Cypress Point is THE greatest golf hole in the world.

It is heroic, strategic AND penal.

It is situated on one of the most breathtaking land forms in the world.

It is the orgasm of the most sensual golf experience on earth.

It overwhelms you visually, emotionally, spiritually, physically and psychologically.

It attacks your sensorium from every possible perspective.

It is the peak experience on quite possibly the greatest course in the universe.

It demands the ultimate from your golf game.

It is simply - unforgettable.

Continue your debate/discussion. Obviously, from my perspective, it is moot and, at most, unadulterated blather.

[Lou Duran]

David,

CP is the most beautiful course that I've played anywhere, and my favorite (though Sand Hills is not far behind it on both counts).  #16 is breathtaking, but I am not sure that I understand the hole.  Do you know why it is that if you cross land to the left of the green and go into the beach or ocean that you do not get a drop where it crossed the boundary no closer to the hole?  Is the driver to the right side the best way to play it?  The green is large and receptive.  I too failed to notice the interesting green complex that you described.  Perhaps I was to preoccupied trying to extricate myself from the beach to the left of the green (5 wood hooked and helped by the wind).   Did you see any similarities CP and Crystal Downs?

[Paul_Turner]

It might be, but then again, how would anyone know if it's the best, unless they've played every hole on the planet
Not everyone likes the 16th at Cypress, I've seen it labelled " a freak" by a couple of fine golf authors: Peter Allen and Peter Dobereiner.  And even Mackenzie had his doubts.

There are dozens of truly great holes on mediocre/average golf courses.  The 16th at Minchinampton Common, being one of these.

[A_Clay_Man]

While I was forced to play the 16th under tough competitive circumstances, I thought the 8th at pebble gave me more of that oh so special feeling and that the ninth at CPC was the most visually and strategically rich.

[Don_Mahaffey]

David,
I don't know if I would call it the best hole in the world, but I can't think of any other hole I've played that made me feel like I did when I played it. The road hole comes close, both require absolute focus and neither can be played well without total commitment to the shot at hand.
I really liked the 5th hole, the short par 5 with two sets of triple cross bunkers. The 5th is, IMHO, great golf course architecture. I also thought the 7th was a great par 3, 8 had an incredible green, and 9 has got to be one of the greatest par 4 holes in the world under 300 yds. 12 is a very good hole, I'm not so sure the 15th isn't better architecture then the 16th, and the 17th is a very good strategic short par 4.
All in all, CP ranks with TOC as my favorite golf course.

[ChipOat]

We can draw conclusions on "favorite" holes - that's a question of taste that imposes no values on other people.

But "best" hole??.  That's also a question of taste, to be sure, but it also presumes that the speaker "knows" what the qualifications for "best" ought to be.

Is anyone qualified to determine who is, in fact, the world's most beautiful woman?

Since I happen to prefer "strategic" holes above all else, I nominate #6 at The Creek as the world's best golf hole.  Pebble #8 is a darn close 2nd, Pine Valley #15 is right behind and about 10 others would be tied for 4th.

As one-shotters, par 3's could be nominated for many categories (most dramatic, most beautiful) but not, IMO, as "world's best".

But that's just my opinion.

[Dennis_Harwood]

..and to illustrate the brilliance of course designers, I have always heard  that the hole (16th) was designed and laid out by Mackensie as a par four--

[TEPaul]

Who cares if #16 is "The GREATEST" golf hole on the planet?

The point is it's a great hole for where it is--it's a magnificent hole naturally!

As you said, David, and JakaB concured, CP is an amazingly good golf course and I would not disagree if you said it was the best there is but the reason the course is so interesting to me from an architectural standpoint is JUST BECAUSE MacKenzie did such a complete job of FINDING everything there that was naturally available for the creation of natural and fantastically good and varied holes!

To me #16 is a no brainer of a natural offering for a golf hole (who could have missed it?) but it's creation is interesting in that MacKenzie did not think it could work as it is now. He had to have the proof that the hole was doable (reachable) from a woman, of all people.

The hole that's more extraordinary to me in it's naturalness is #9 simply because it's possiblities were not so obvious. Mackenzie literally moved about two tablespoons of earth on that hole! Some other architect may very well have failed to see the interesting potential of all that hole's natural characteristics!

The other thing about CP that's at the pinnacle of architecture to me is Mackenzie's ability (actually probably the American Construction Co.) to build bunkering that truly was and is almost completely indistinguishable from nature. In that particular way I believe that Cypress was the first and very well may have been the best ever done at reaching that very important and ultimate goal in architecture!

[Paul Richards]

David:

Glad you (finally) got to play Cypress.  I knew you'd go bonkers over it!

I agree - #16 at Cypress is the best golf hole on earth!

[NAF]

I have to agree after playing CP that #16 is the greatest golf hole in the world..It definitely brings a recollection of a vivid moment in my head an it is the greatest walk in golf form #15 green to #16 tee and one of the most beautiful! Hitting the green on #16 in regulation in my best golfing memory to date even eclipsing my first ball in the jar from the fairway..

Regardless, I have been reading Sir Peter Allen's Play the best courses and even above Cypress Point he labels the 16th at Deal (Royal Cinque Ports) as the world's greatest hole.  The approach shot to this former par 4 and now short par 5 (into a harsh prevailing wind) is what makes it so great.  The green is perched defiantly on a dune overlooking a valley of "inglorious security" as Darwin put it.  It is the most fun links hole I have played.  It is provocative, subtle and mysterious..

[THuckaby2]

My God is it too bad Rich Goodale doesn't frequent this any more.  His thoughts on Cypress would make for GREAT conversation here.  I don't want to put words in his mouth but let's just say he disagrees with you on all of this, Dave.

As for me, oh yeah, 16 Cypress is my favorite hole on this earth and thus it is the greatest hole on this earth.  I don't make a distinction between the two, really.  Nowhere else have my knees shaken and I've been physically unable to take back the club like I was there each time I played it... thank God both times I had wonderful caddies that talked me through the shot or I might still be standing there... on the other hand, that wouldn't be that bad....

#1 course on earth?  You won't get any argument from me.  I defended it against all challengers for many, many years, until this spring when I saw a lil' ole place in Nebraska that relegated it, painfully for me, to #2.  But damn that still hurts to say so lets just say they are 1 and 1A and I need to see 1A again for a refresher!

Glad you dug it, Dave and most importantly glad you were inspired.  I can say with great certainty that that is what your benefactors' "project" is all about.

TH

[David Wigler]

Gene,

You summed up what I could not put into words.  The entire experience of that hole is awe-inspiring.  For a person who loves golf, it must feel like what Franklin felt when the lighting bolt hit his kite.

I killed a 3-wood and caught the left rough between the green and the ocean.  Second shot was a chip to seven feet.  I looked at my caddy and told him I had never had a putt I wanted to make so badly in my entire life.  The entire experience was ethereal.  All the tournaments, matches, money games, etc., I would have traded every of those putts to hit this one.  The green complex on 16 felt like Eden and I was trying to make a putt in front of St. Peter for admission into heaven.  It was a sensation unlike any other I have ever had in golf.  I cannot fathom another golf hole or position that could cause those emotions.  I honestly had goose bumps.

Short story long – I misread it as a left to right, pushed the putt and it went right into the back of the cup.  Don had to slap me to get me to move and wipe the smile off my face.

[THuckaby2]

VERY cool, Dave.  Congrats!  I've told my 16 Cypress stories too many time to too many people but let's just say after two playings I am even par lifetime and it's one of my prouder golf "achievements."  Very funny, exactly like you I too told the caddie my par putt (first playing) was the most important putt I have ever had...  My experience there was EXACTLY like yours.  It's tough to explain the feeling, isn't it?  But I believe we now have another in the 16 Cypress "brethren."  Welcome, Dave.  You oughtta talk to Wayne Freedman, a very infrequent poster here but all-around great guy some time... He goes off on the cool walk from 15 green to 16 tee.... check out:

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/features/wayne_golf_course_review_cypress_point.html

Cheers!

TH

[Bob_Huntley]

Dave:

Would you be good enough to tell me how you really feel about the hole?

One of these days we are going to have to ask Goodale to comment, his thoughts are truly blasphemous.

I am glad to see that even you hit a three wood to the green, I used to, but now bunt a four iron to the left over the gnarled cypress. Getting old is not for sissys or golfers who think they can still play. Of the GCA'ers that I know have played the course, our good friend Lou Duran had the best score after No. 14, a wonderful 4 under par.
Another birdie at 17 but slip ups at 15,16 and 18 cost him the round of his life.

[THuckaby2]

Well noted, Mr. Huntley.  I too take comfort from the fact that big-hitting Wigler had to hit 3wood on 16 - it makes both of my drivers feel a little less wimpy.  And I don't have the super-seniority you do, Bob!

And as for my good friend Lou, damn I wish I was there to see that!  That round precipitated Goodale's blasphemy, also... But in any case, Mr. Duran can play the game, oh yes he can... which will cause the first good thing I've ever said about my game on this venerable discussion group... wanna tell them about our match at Sand Hills, Lou?  

Back to awshuckedness.  It was a win for me, yes, and I did play well.  But I would have gotten royally ass-kicked by the Lou that played Cypress.  He gave me a bit of a gift in Nebraska.  And to say it was fun regardless of outcome is the understatement of the year!

TH

[David Wigler]

Tom,

There was a heavy fog and we could barely see the green.  You could tell how heavy the air was.  3-wood was clearly the right club (Our group was two 3-woods and 2-Drivers).

I am so glad that there is a forum of people who I can discuss the hole with.  Everyone back home thinks I need to be committed when I describe it.  I kept expecting Dr. Mackenzie to come out of the fog and advise me on the shot (I'm not kidding, that thought was in my head).  It felt like the scene from Field of Dreams when Shoeless Joe comes out of the cornfield.  I am not a highly religious person but the moment was spiritual.  I read Wayne’s article (Thank you for the link).  He hit the nail on the head.  I took two pictures of the walk.  It did feel like you were leaving the planet for a short journey to heaven.  I have goose bumps again now as I write this and recall all of the emotions (Tom - do those go away with time or can you hoard them like gold?).  

Bob -  

[RFG]

All Right, Gentlemen!

All I was trying to do was solve that "What do we do with the 18th" quesiton that has vexed CCP membvers for some time.....

A simple re-routing is all that is called for, namely:

Tee off at 18 green down to the 17 green site.  2nd is from 18th tee to 17th green (this could be the best golf hole on the part of the planet that is not Dornoch).  3 tees off from the rock next to the old 16th green to the 16th tee area.  15 and 14 are reversed.  Then the course plays, from old 2 onward pretty much as now but then you climb back up the hill from the old 1 green 2/14 tee area to a new 18th nestled up against the clubhous at the top of the hill.  Elegant, n'est-ce pas?

Outside of the minor flaws that this plan ameliorates, CPC is perfect!  I'm awaiting my call for membership and chair of the green committee!

[THuckaby2]

Dave:  nope, they don't go away at all... you just have to try and avoid thinking about it ALL THE TIME...The goosebumps are there for me right now reading your description and recalling my experiences there!  I played it both times in pretty heavy air also... not the fog you got though - that sounds VERY cool!

And Rich, glad to see we could draw you out.

Your re-route is interesting, but even notwithstanding the fact I'm not convinced your holes on the ocean improve those that exist, your 18th hole as suggested is impossible.  You gonna have folks hit approach shots over 17 Mile Drive?

TH

[Will E]

Dave,
I hope this round was an eye opening experience for you. I think it was. I can just see you now tearing down your designs for the faux waterfalls and mango mist sprinklers you had planed for Plum.
As far as CP goes, I too love it. I'm not sure if 16 is the best hole on the planet, but not knowing qualifies it for the discussion.
As far as the walk from 15 to 16 goes it is great, I'd have to give the walk from 2 to 3 at Dornoch the nod though.
As soon as your feet hit the ground you have GOT to get up to see that course I told you about in Frankfort.

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