[Brent Hutto]

I certainly wouldn't join a club whose members I didn't feel compatible with. That said, for me the golf course is far from secondary. Put bluntly, I would not be a member of any country club at all if it weren't for the golf course. Hey the people are great and I feel fortunate to be associated with them but when I had a chance to join, having seen and played at the course a few times, the golf course was the part that I was excited about.

I can't imagine joining a club with a course that bored or disappointed me and in all honesty I could probably deal with shortcomings among the membership much easier than with the golf course. Fortunately I did not have to make that tradeoff but a fine golf course that suits your game is worth finding.

[Sean_A]

Assuming the course is good enough that you won't get bored, I think ideally I would go with the club that felt right - old or new.  The problem is, the older I get, the more I lose interest in courses.  A golf course is like a job.  If a hint of adverse weather puts you off teeing it up like Monday mornings can put you off a job, then its time for a change of scenery in both areas. 

[Tony Petersen]

My take is there are two schools of management in the current scheme of things:

1. The Club Corp/Troon Golf Corporate model. The end result is max profits, high staff turn-over and, IMHO, no sense of investment or entitlement in the club.

2. Old School, Pro gets the shop, Club leases the carts. My style of golf and my style of management. I want that "Caddy Shack" feel, that sense of ownership, of being a part of something. The best is when the Pro has a good sense of business, and the club anticipates expenses, rather than reacting to needed upgrades...

I like my club houses old, and my Pro to call me by my first name. I like being a part of a club where a dozen McMuffins for the Greens Staff can get you out before the 1st tee time... And a 1/2 dozen McMuffins left by the locked door of the Pro Shop leaves you in good graces with one & all

[Michael Powers]

Tony,
It's one thing to buy 12 McMuffins at one time, and it's quite another to use them to bribe club employees....

[Mike Erdmann]

Scott, there's a lot you haven't said about the situation.  Is the older, more established club, member-owned?  Does the course pale in comparison to the new Nicklaus course, or is it a quality course itself?  Without knowing details it's hard to know for sure, but I'd agree with bulk of the others who have commented already.  Assuming the older club is member-owned and a good golf course, I'd definitely go with the established club.  I've been a member of a corporate-owned club and bailed on it after a few years to join the older, established member-owned club and never regretted it for a second.  I'd most definitely check the financial health of the older club though.  Is their membership full or close to full, or are they struggling for members?  Do they have a long-range plan in writing for the club?  Do they have healthy reserves, or do they anticipate major capital expenses in the future that will require expensive assessments?

[Bob_Huntley]

My take is there are two schools of management in the current scheme of things:

1. The Club Corp/Troon Golf Corporate model. The end result is max profits, high staff turn-over and, IMHO, no sense of investment or entitlement in the club.

2. Old School, Pro gets the shop, Club leases the carts. My style of golf and my style of management. I want that "Caddy Shack" feel, that sense of ownership, of being a part of something. The best is when the Pro has a good sense of business, and the club anticipates expenses, rather than reacting to needed upgrades...

I like my club houses old, and my Pro to call me by my first name. I like being a part of a club where a dozen McMuffins for the Greens Staff can get you out before the 1st tee time... And a 1/2 dozen McMuffins left by the locked door of the Pro Shop will get you an afternoon round as well 

[Bob_Huntley]

Tony,

I find that tipping or bribing the staff at any club,  to achieve something not available to other members is disgusting. Some years ago I was about to play Bel-Air in Los Angeles, a celebrity came along dropped the starter a big one and was well on his way before others who were in line. I decided then and there that ithis should never happen at a private club and I would certainly fire the guy taking the money.

Bob

[Tony Petersen]

Bob -

I was joking about the McMuffins... I was trying to convey that sense of home that you get at the right club 

And hey, we're talking about McMuffins in Small Town, MN... not celebrities at Bel Aire 

[Tony Petersen]

Tony,
It's one thing to buy 12 McMuffins at one time, and it's quite another to use them to bribe club employees....

You have to admit that it brought a smile to your face thinking about those yummy McMuffins... early in the mornin, dew on the grass

[Scott_Park]

Thanks for everyone's input.  I am leaning strongly toward the Clubcorp managed, Nicklaus course and provided the super can answer some questions to my liking, that will be the club I join.

In the end, the known difference in course quality trumped the potential difference in "clubbiness".

The decision became much easier once I asked my self if I joined one club, would I later wished that I had joined the other.

Scott

[TEPaul]

Scott:

You know that outrageous character that Rodney Dangerfield played in Caddyshack?

Well, regardless of which club you decided to join my recommendation is you try to emulate Rodney Dangerfield's character as accurately as you can whenever you visit the club to look at it and have them look at you.

If nobody laughs in either club, look for somewhere else to go!

[Gerry B]

I belong to multiple clubs and used the following criteria:

1) do you love the course - is it a course that you will enjoy playing 20 years from now. As you get older - will you still get the same shot values from the forward tee boxes.

2) can you get along with the membership - litmus test - you can show up anytime and find a game with other members who you will most likely enjoy playing with on aregular basis.

3) financial stability - ie established clubs who have a long range plan and are not looking for members is a plus / as is equity - ie the members decide how the club will spend their money. clubs who combine the club with a real estate play can fall on hard times - which is certainly the case in the present economy.

4) is a golf club as opposed to a country club

5) a professional and friendly staff - who understand that you are the reason they are employed. The inmates do not run the asylum.

4) not too busy - ie can you show up on a saturday morning without a tee time.

5) very few club tournaments  / outings - which  limits access at times which I find very frustrating.

6) multiple courses at the same club - which can alleviate the club tournament access problem.

5) a diverse membership - especially in terms of age - many clubs have made the fateful mistake of not recruiting  / nurturing younger members  - which recently has resulted in financial problems  for many clubs. obviously there are exceptions - ie.  clubs with a small well heeled membership who have the financial means to pay the bills.

[James Bennett]

Gerry B

A good list of points, in particular point 4 (both of them) and point 5 (all three of them).

James B

[Dave_Miller]

Tony,

I find that tipping or bribing the staff at any club,  to achieve something not available to other members is disgusting. Some years ago I was about to play Bel-Air in Los Angeles, a celebrity came along dropped the starter a big one and was well on his way before others who were in line. I decided then and there that ithis should never happen at a private club and I would certainly fire the guy taking the money.

Bob

Bob
As always your comments are right on.  There is no room for that in a Private Club.  This is a firing offense at the Clubs I belong to.
Best
Dave

[Sandy Smith]

The people and atmosphere are more important than the golf course (and I care a lot about the course).

I totaly agree with Jason . The people you play with and the type of club it is are the most important  things to look for when joining a club .

[Dan Boerger]

It's easy to forget how fortunate one is until these stories surface. A member should be treated the same as any other member, regardless of how deep their pockets are or if they've been a member for 5 days or 50 years.

I think it may have been Wayne M who posted this a while back, but it's as good a description as I've heard ... You should get a feeling of comfort and pride as you drive in the entrance.

I work some massively long hours at times and put up with some crappy travel. The enjoyment I get out of going to my club for a day of golf or just going to dinner and an evening at the piano bar has increased over time.

I wish you luck on your selection.

[jeffwarne]

Tony,

I find that tipping or bribing the staff at any club,  to achieve something not available to other members is disgusting. Some years ago I was about to play Bel-Air in Los Angeles, a celebrity came along dropped the starter a big one and was well on his way before others who were in line. I decided then and there that ithis should never happen at a private club and I would certainly fire the guy taking the money.

Bob

Bob
As always your comments are right on.  There is no room for that in a Private Club.  This is a firing offense at the Clubs I belong to.
Best
Dave

Ummm..... If you fire the employee have you solved the problem?

This is a complaint I've heard before at many of the clubs I belong to and worked at-
but it's rarely actually happening the way it's perceived to be happening.(although I'm sure it does happen)

Once ,when I worked at Long Cove an out of town member who had no advance tee time politely approached me with his dilemna of three guests and no tee time , I suggested he putt and linger near the first tee. After watching the first tee remain open for 10 minutes, I had his group tee off-He thanked me profusely and immediately off they went.
The member who had the tee- time that went begging came sprinting down yelling obscenities and suggesting a gratuity was involved--as half of his group was just pulling into the parking lot.
I politely suggested his two ball tee off (to secure their spot)and we would bring out the rest of his group when they were ready.
He insisted the group in front had cut in and "bought" their tee time-meanwhile as he continued to reprimand me (rather than tee off) the group who was now up showed up.
At that point I suggested he come back in a couple of hours and I would try to work him in.


This had everything to do with accomodating a polite member in a tight, embarrassing position and another who was simply late incurring no penalty(at first) yet freaking out.
Very often the staff will go out of their way to accomodate a nice person, and occasionally apply the rules literally to a known prick.

It generally not a coincidence that the genuinely polite, easy going  members are a bit more generous regarding the Holiday Gratuity Fund,   and often that is not the case with the members that take care to make sure the employees "know that they are the reason they're employed".
And yes the "inmates" do run the asylum, so it never hurts to be courteous to them.

[Steve_Lovett]

Tony,

I find that tipping or bribing the staff at any club,  to achieve something not available to other members is disgusting. Some years ago I was about to play Bel-Air in Los Angeles, a celebrity came along dropped the starter a big one and was well on his way before others who were in line. I decided then and there that ithis should never happen at a private club and I would certainly fire the guy taking the money.

Bob

Bob
As always your comments are right on.  There is no room for that in a Private Club.  This is a firing offense at the Clubs I belong to.
Best
Dave

Ummm..... If you fire the employee have you solved the problem?

This is a complaint I've heard before at many of the clubs I belong to and worked at-
but it's rarely actually happening the way it's perceived to be happening.(although I'm sure it does happen)

Once ,when I worked at Long Cove an out of town member who had no advance tee time politely approached me with his dilemna of three guests and no tee time , I suggested he putt and linger near the first tee. After watching the first tee remain open for 10 minutes, I had his group tee off-He thanked me profusely and immediately off they went.
The member who had the tee- time that went begging came sprinting down yelling obscenities and suggesting a gratuity was involved--as half of his group was just pulling into the parking lot.
I politely suggested his two ball tee off (to secure their spot)and we would bring out the rest of his group when they were ready.
He insisted the group in front had cut in and "bought" their tee time-meanwhile as he continued to reprimand me (rather than tee off) the group who was now up showed up.
At that point I suggested he come back in a couple of hours and I would try to work him in.


This had everything to do with accomodating a polite member in a tight, embarrassing position and another who was simply late incurring no penalty(at first) yet freaking out.
Very often the staff will go out of their way to accomodate a nice person, and occasionally apply the rules literally to a known prick.

It generally not a coincidence that the genuinely polite, easy going  members are a bit more generous regarding the Holiday Gratuity Fund,   and often that is not the case with the members that take care to make sure the employees "know that they are the reason they're employed".
And yes the "inmates" do run the asylum, so it never hurts to be courteous to them.

Unless a club gets so much play that it's not realistic, I like the policy of "no tee times"...  Golf should be a gentleman's game, and each group should be able to work out amongst themselves their way to the first tee...

[Peter Wagner]

Tony,

I find that tipping or bribing the staff at any club,  to achieve something not available to other members is disgusting. Some years ago I was about to play Bel-Air in Los Angeles, a celebrity came along dropped the starter a big one and was well on his way before others who were in line. I decided then and there that ithis should never happen at a private club and I would certainly fire the guy taking the money.

Bob

Hi Bob,

I completely agree.  We just passed a 'no tipping' policy at my home club and now I have the former tippers mad at me.  Oh well.  All members should receive equal treatment otherwise what's the point.  I have always found no tipping clubs to be more comfortable. 

When tipping is outlawed the burden shifts to the club management to make sure employees are comped correctly.

The only exception we made was to allow caddy tipping.

Best,
Peter

[Peter Wagner]

Some random points:

1.) Ask detailed questions about how you exit the club.  The U.S. national average is that members will quit after 7 years.  It's often easier to leave established member-owned clubs than brand new clubs.

2.) I'd want to see some financials especially the current budget.  Breaking even? Losing $'s?  How much is being budgeted for course maint?

3.) Do you match up with the membership demographics?

4.) Are the social functions consistent with what you're looking for?

5.) Does one club offer a superior location?  Closer to home?  Easy to stop on the way home from work?

6.) Obviously course design matters but I'm assuming that both offer something here otherwise you'd have cut one already.  Personally I'd put this somewhere low on my list.  You're joining a club not a course.

Best,
Peter

PS.  Our caddies would call this an "RPP" (rich person problem)!

[Tony Petersen]

When tipping is outlawed the burden shifts to the club management to make sure employees are comped correctly.

Yeah, right  Me thinks that you have never spent any time on the other side of the counter...

I have been on both sides and can understand a membership that wants to move towards a no-tipping policy... That said, the players, the fun members and guests still take care of the staff, and that's a good thing. It just kills me when the staff helps a member above & beyond, and the member doesn't even think of tipping. I understand we pay for the priviledge, but the staff is not getting rich working in the golf industry (for the most part) so everything little bit does help them... and is genuinely appreciated. To me, that's not ridiculous, but just human nature to take care of those that take care of us... above & beyond the intiation, the monthlies, etc. And I'm sorry, but if a staff guy cruises out to my car while playing in Aspen, I should be able to tip him without him having to worry about getting fired 

[nandoal]

I belong to multiple clubs and used the following criteria:

1) do you love the course - is it a course that you will enjoy playing 20 years from now. As you get older - will you still get the same shot values from the forward tee boxes.

2) can you get along with the membership - litmus test - you can show up anytime and find a game with other members who you will most likely enjoy playing with on aregular basis.

3) financial stability - ie established clubs who have a long range plan and are not looking for members is a plus / as is equity - ie the members decide how the club will spend their money. clubs who combine the club with a real estate play can fall on hard times - which is certainly the case in the present economy.

4) is a golf club as opposed to a country club

5) a professional and friendly staff - who understand that you are the reason they are employed. The inmates do not run the asylum.

4) not too busy - ie can you show up on a saturday morning without a tee time.

5) very few club tournaments  / outings - which  limits access at times which I find very frustrating.

6) multiple courses at the same club - which can alleviate the club tournament access problem.

5) a diverse membership - especially in terms of age - many clubs have made the fateful mistake of not recruiting  / nurturing younger members  - which recently has resulted in financial problems  for many clubs. obviously there are exceptions - ie.  clubs with a small well heeled membership who have the financial means to pay the bills.

Good luck finding all of these things in a club to your liking.  Alot of the things you want in a club contradict themselves.

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