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Patrick_Mucci_Jr

TEPaul,

The problem with achieving a speed of 11, for any occassion, are the insidious forces that want to maintain those speeds as often as possible.

The desire to make a one time condition morph into a permanent condition.

There's an underlying desire to get greens to the fastest speeds possible, as often as  possible, and that's where the need for speed collides with the architecture, resulting in its disfiguration and/or destruction

That's why and where contours and slopes are softened and lost.

For one reason and one reason only ....... SPEED

If this wasn't a problem, how do you explain why so many greens have been softened and/or disfigured over the last 20 years or so ?

Why were Winged Foot's greens softened ?

Why are there serious proposals to soften Merion's greens  ?

You had a good idea a long time ago, (I know that's hard to believe) one you've obviously forgotten.
Perhaps it was an idea you purloined from some unsuspecting superintendent.

Each club should go to its severest green,  determine the speed at which that green works best, and then apply that speed as close to universally as possible, to every green on the golf course, forgetting about the fact that the greens COULD putt at a faster speed.

Failure to employ that method will continue to result in the disfiguration and destruction of unique, challenging putting surfaces, thereby undermining the play of the game.

Ian Larson

  • Total Karma: 0
I dont completely agree with everything Im about to state but........let the game evolve a little. Its the golfer against the course. Everyone plays the same course. Its ineviteable that the game will evolve. We need to adjust to it. its the natural process. I hate everything that I just said but I think there is alot of truth to it.

Adam Clayman

  • Total Karma: 0
"I do also like Dr. Klein's famous comment on the subject."

Adam:

Do you mean that line when he says to a roomful of rich people that the first thing he learned about golf course architecture is that rich people can be really stupid too?

Ja vol!


"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

JESII

  • Total Karma: -2
Apologies for the delayed response. I was hoping to take the time to really consider the many good responses on here and just have not had the time lately.

I really appreciate Ron Prichard popping in with an interesting commentary.

My baseline of reasoning when starting this thread is that all things evolve...all the time.

Much of what Ian Larson said just above is true. I can't get my hands around what people think will happen if we roll equipment back 5% or 10% or whatever. Is there some reason to believe that 15 years later people will not hit the ball as far as they had just prior to a roll back?

Ron suggests that agronomic improvements have had a comparably deleterious effect on "the Royal and Ancient Game" as distance advancements. I would be interested to hear that fleshed out a bit more. I can understand his view about green speeds, and if that's it I would have no objection, but if there is more weight on the negative side of agronomic advancement I would be an interested reader.

I firmly believe that the best defense is a good offense.

How can we advance the presentation of our golf courses to reward accuracy and control at least as well as we reward distance capability?

I have suggested on this board a few times that the best way to counter the distance crush at the top level of the game (not the primary focus of this thread, but an undeniable adversary) is to play PGA Tour events at courses that demand accuracy and ball control more than distance. Harbor Town, Colonial, Riviera all have reputations for asking this of their players. If every single Tour event were held at a Riviera style course you would not have players ratcheting up their equipment for maximum yardage. They would voluntarily "roll-back" their equipment to whatever gives them the best control of the ball.

RSLivingston_III

  • Total Karma: 0
"How can we advance the presentation of our golf courses to reward accuracy and control at least as well as we reward distance capability?"

In theory there are 14 shots, or less, that are dependent on max distance. I think it is a travisty that it surpassed accuracy and control as the predominant factor of the game.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

JESII

  • Total Karma: -2
Ralph,

Clearly, each drive has some component of all three. At the elite level however, the players have made a concerted effort to escalate their driving distance numbers at the expense of their driving accuracy numbers. For some strange reason, their driving distance numbers carry influence on our home clubs when golf course budgets are negotiated.

I think I disagree with your contention that only 14 shots are executed at full power. Watch Charles Howell play. There is no half shot with an iron any more.


Peter Pallotta

I read today about the first Doral Open, in 1962. Sam Snead and Ben Hogan were paired together.  They had six people following them; a gallery of six. Mr. Snead turned to Mr. Hogan and said: "They must not like us much down here, Ben," to which Mr. Hogan replied: 'Humph." 

A man who'd later play a big role in running and growing the PGA Tour (sorry, I forget his name) was watching, and said that he realized then that the Tour would never grow based on "purists" i.e. on those fans who loved to watch golf played the way it should be played; the Tour needed "personality," and needed to capture the casual golfer and casual golf fan.

Which is to say, I think that maybe embedded in the Tour philosophy is a desire never to see the game become one where a Ben Hogan could again dominate; which makes the slavish attempts by top clubs to makes themselves worthy of the professional ideal by trying to mimic Tour courses and course set-ups all the more unfortunate.  And also ironic, since I'd imagine a 6800 yard course with great greens and wide fairways and that's playing very firm and fast would bring out the imagination and shot-making of the best players better than anything else.

Peter   

RSLivingston_III

  • Total Karma: 0
Ralph,

Clearly, each drive has some component of all three. At the elite level however, the players have made a concerted effort to escalate their driving distance numbers at the expense of their driving accuracy numbers. For some strange reason, their driving distance numbers carry influence on our home clubs when golf course budgets are negotiated.

I think I disagree with your contention that only 14 shots are executed at full power. Watch Charles Howell play. There is no half shot with an iron any more.



I was saying there are only 14 shots or less that are designed to achieve max distance. Max power Iron shots still fall under the accuracy & control umbrella.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Ian Larson

  • Total Karma: 0
To add to my comment above....

I do believe the game will evolve, it is inevitible. And that its the golfers job to play the same course the others are playing. May the best man or best course win.

As far as the game evolving I dont believe that it should include longer flying balls struck by technologically advanced clubs on a 9000 yard course with the greens stimping 14.

It will evolve, but hopefully not in the monstrous direction.

May I vent about green speeds?  What is so wrong with having a green stimping at 8? And who is to say ALL the greens are stimping at eight. Or whos to say they are ALL stimping at 14!!!! Im out on the course everyday with a few balls, my putter and yes a stimp. The stimp is solely used to compare one green to the next, CONSISTENCY!!!! Its not a speedometer!!!!!  The key to a nice green or greens is the consistency throughout the course with firmness and trueness. Would you rather hit a great 50 foot putt that stops right at the cup, then it creeps and rolls off the green?  Or hit that same shot and make it stick and tap it in?

To sum this up......consistent, true and firm greens are all a true golf purist should care about.


JESII

  • Total Karma: -2
Peter,

Agree with 99% of that, but I disagree that the "personality" the Tour sought was directly connected to style of play. I didn't see either of them play, but from reports Trevino and Hogan were fairly similar with respect to an incredible control of the ball and consistency.

I just think long hitting and low scores (soft smooth greens being the greatest assist there) became the agenda.


Ralph,

Fair enough, but I hope and trust you see the problem with the lack of creativity in finding a hole location today...

RSLivingston_III

  • Total Karma: 0
Peter,

Agree with 99% of that, but I disagree that the "personality" the Tour sought was directly connected to style of play. I didn't see either of them play, but from reports Trevino and Hogan were fairly similar with respect to an incredible control of the ball and consistency.

I just think long hitting and low scores (soft smooth greens being the greatest assist there) became the agenda.


Ralph,

Fair enough, but I hope and trust you see the problem with the lack of creativity in finding a hole location today...
I do see the problem and hope it is resolved by maintaining the larger contours and longer grass for moderately fast speeds..
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Jim_Kennedy

  • Total Karma: 1
This may only be interesting to me  ::) but Tiger once commented that one of the toughest times he had controliing his ball at Augusta was during a practice round. Seems it had been raining for a while prior to his playing, the fairways hadn't been mown, and they were (as I remember reading it) 1/4" longer than normal. He said that getting the proper amount of spin on the ball became a real problem.

If the 'best' in the world finds 1/4" of rough enough to mess with his game then it seems that 'just cut(ting) the grass higher" might just work.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Joe Hancock

  • Total Karma: 6
Jim,

I don't have any way to relate to Tiger's game, but I wholeheartedly agree with a regime of longer grass on firmer ground, which still produces hard bounces (sideways ;D) but less run out.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Jim_Kennedy

  • Total Karma: 1
Joe,
Who does(relate to Tiger)?  ;D

He was also referencing the diffculty of approaching those treacherous greens from less than perfect lies, mainly, 1/4 of an inch more grass between the clubface and the ball.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Again, Ron Prichard reads GOLFCLUBATLAS.com when he gets the chance and sometimes feels the need to contribute through some of us he knows who are on this website. Here's his latest message, unedited, on this subject:




"Hi Tom:
 
                Spending a few moments between the Memphis/UCLA,and Kanasas/UNC,basketball game, and glanced at GCA. I was pleased to note that JimESII posted again on the topic; "Is it fair to equate distance technology with agronomic improvements?"  As you know, I'm mostly inclined to watch the flow of comments, but every now and then I see a thread where I might pitch in, and hopefully push a few more people in the direction of a better understanding of the game as it was born.
 
                 In response to Jim's post at 2:39:39pm. today, Yes, "all things evolve...all the time", but I'm not satisfied to just sit by and watch it happen. There are many developments in golf - driven most often by monetary motives - which all to some degree impact the game. And what most have achieved has been detrimental in the sense that the games greatest golf courses have been seriously affected. And most golf courses have begrudgingly had to respond. (I also understand there are many who will shrug their shoulders and say, "so what" - I watched this happen during the Barry Bonds argument. These folks - and there are many who post on GCA, would see no harm in using aluminum bats in baseball. - who cares if all the ball parks are suddenly too small?) 
 
                  Now, back to the topic - to simplify the point I was making, "any architect who makes an effort to really study the great golf courses which we can visit - from Royal Dornoch to Cypress Point will eventually understand the greatest means of defending any golf course is by creating fascinating, undulating, hence challenging putting surfaces. When this is achieved it immediately provides the means of establishing varying strategy from day to day - depending on the placement of the hole on the putting surface. (Yes the putting areas must be, can be, properly defended by deep enough, meaningful bunkers and on, and on.)
 
                   The great architects of yesterday recognized that golf in it's proper form was two games - in one.  The first; was the journey from tee to green. The second; was the great challenge of playing effectively/successfully on the putting surfaces. When we constantly stress greater speed on these putting surfaces - achieved with improved species of turf, and of course such maintenance practices as rolling, we sooner or later reach a point where the green surfaces are so limited in cupping area, and, particularly under tournament playing conditions,  so extremely quick, - clubs have little option but to rebuild the putting area/areas.  The consequence  ---  we end up with the same sort of outrageously boring putting areas that we see week after week on the PGA Tour. 
 
                         Most modern day architects, and this includes some of those who post here, should recognize and accept that their work, and the game of golf will be well protected, - and a better game if they learn to emulate the best work of ages past, rather than producing the sort greens and putting surfaces they learned from their mentors. 
 
                           I'm getting tired, I type rather slowly, and Jim; Fairway treatment is a topic for another day.
 
                                                                           Hope this helps a bit;
                                                                                          Ron
 
Tom; Perhaps you'll send this on.  Take care of yourself;"
                                             





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JESII

  • Total Karma: -2
Thank you Ron, and Tom...

When I see a green that does not dictate play back to the tee I think an opportunity has been lost. I struggle with the notion that "The great architects of yesterday recognized that golf in it's proper form was two games - in one", especially in the context Tom Paul frequently espouses about the term "Green in Regulation" being a change since those days...and not a good one.

You will note Ron, that I am not interested in sitting by and watching "the ball parks become too small" either. I just do not believe that mandating a roll back of drivers and balls is the optimal answer.

I don't know what to say about green speeds...the game, in total, is just better to me when played at 11 feet than when played at 9 feet.



TEPaul

"When I see a green that does not dictate play back to the tee I think an opportunity has been lost. I struggle with the notion that "The great architects of yesterday recognized that golf in it's proper form was two games - in one", especially in the context Tom Paul frequently espouses about the term "Green in Regulation" being a change since those days...and not a good one."


Sully:

When you say you struggle with the notion of Ron Prichard's remark that 'the great architects of yesterday recognized that golf in its proper form was two games in one', are you saying you don't think the great architects of yesterday recognized that or are you saying you don't believe that golf in its proper form should be two games in one that way?

In my opinion, that concept and particularly that phraseology of Ron Prichard just might be some of the most fascinating I have ever seen on this website.

In my opinion, green-end playability should be one of two games in golf for the simple reason green-end playablity is inherently "democratic" since it doesn't take strength like tee to green playbility does, it just takes imagination and creativity along with non-strength execution. In a real way, greens and green-end playbility is the payoff for the clever tortoise who has bided his time and played from tee TO green either waiting for the tiger (rabbit) to exceed himself and make a mistake or to just tie him if the Tiger doesn't do as well at the green and green-end as the tortoise does.

I know you know where I'm coming from on this since I think you know I made a career out of green and green-end golf. For me there was no other way to compete with those I had to compete against from tee TO green. Believe me, I've snuck up on more greens before they saw me coming than you could possibly imagine! Not just can that modus operandi tie and sometimes beat the tiger on holes but over a round it tends to drive them crazy!  ;)

« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 12:28:09 AM by TEPaul »

Mike_Young

  • Total Karma: 1
The way I read the thread title...it would seem to relate more to fairways height than green speed.  In talking with a few different tour players from time to time...they will tell you that on many of the tour prepped courses, fairway height of cut is worth 10-15 yards vs playing back at their home course.  What do you say about that.  And while I would agree with RP as to his statements....it is really out of our hands....greenspeed is now a contest, nothing more, between local clubs....and the guys doing it in most cases could put no better on a green stimping at 8 feet.
Presently I am a member at a club thinking they need to reduce green slope and spend a few $$$$ to redo all greens.....they are not drivenby what the membership wants as much as by what their friends on committees at the other clubs will think.....AND again we come down to the proverbial "weiner measuring" contest.  That is all greenspeed is. ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

TEPaul

"Presently I am a member at a club thinking they need to reduce green slope and spend a few $$$$ to redo all greens....."

MikeY:

That is just a real bullshit reaction on the part of those members. Somebody at your club should just take the bull by the horns and tell those people they are full of shit to want to reduce slope in the name of increasing greenspeed.

TEPaul

"I don't know what to say about green speeds...the game, in total, is just better to me when played at 11 feet than when played at 9 feet."

Sully:

While I'm no advocate of a greenspeed race or contest I very much agree with you there. I've surely tested a ton of greens while officiated and some very slopey and contoured ones and I think up to an 11 really can work playability-wise on most all greens. I just don't think it's necessary anywhere to try to exceed 11 and in that I include US Opens!

But the key is to just don't touch green slope and contour and if things seem a little out of control playability-wise then just do the sane and inexpesive thing and slow speed down until it isn't out of control playability-wise.


Mike_Young

  • Total Karma: 1
"Presently I am a member at a club thinking they need to reduce green slope and spend a few $$$$ to redo all greens....."

MikeY:

That is just a real bullshit reaction on the part of those members. Somebody at your club should just take the bull by the horns and tell those people they are full of shit to want to reduce slope in the name of increasing greenspeed.
TP,
Calm down..its only a few of the "pretty people" from one fraternity......we just let them spew.....funny thing is we checked the handicap sheets on this group a few months back....8 guys and 31 scores reported over a year.....just guys wanting to say they left a legacy.....they dont even really play the place..... ;D ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

TEPaul

"TP,
Calm down..its only a few of the "pretty people" from one fraternity......"

MikeY:

No way. After you've had a sufficient amount of grits this morning I want you to go over there and round up that small fraternity and take them out back by the garbage cans and beat the tar outta them! Then stuff them into some garbage cans, put some soil and chemicals and water on top of them and turn the garbage cans upside down.

JESII

  • Total Karma: -2
Tom,

I don't think I agree with the notion that there are, or should be, two games in one.

I think too much of the putting part of the game is predicated by the hitting part of the game.

Like offense and defense in football. There is a much clearer distinction between the two major parts of that game, but if your defense cannot stop a single drive by the opponent it makes little difference how good your offense is.

Patrick_Mucci

NO
« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 01:36:42 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

JESII

  • Total Karma: -2
Mike Young,

I wrote the thread title with green speeds in mind as a counter measure to courses playing shorter.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 01:40:48 PM by JES II »