Chambers Bay - Groomed for US Open

[Norbert P]

 This exerpt is from a Ron Whitten article . . .

  " . . .  Chambers Bay was designed with a potential U.S. Open in mind. During construction, USGA officials visited the site several times and offered suggestions concerning course strategies, gallery circulation, spectator vantage points, locations for concession stands, TV towers and the like. "

  Is this the USGA's answer to the TPC courses?

  Is this a good thing?

For the whole article . . .
http://www.golfdigest.com/golfworld/columnists/2008/02/gw20080215whitten

[RJ_Daley]

Is this the USGA's answer to the TPC courses?

Norby, I don't think so.  If I'm not mistaken, Chambers Bay wasn't built with USGA input before hand.  I'm sure the architect already knows what kind of space is needed for putting on a big tournament, and probably did tailor the design/routing to include gallery space.  But, I'm not so sure that the USGA has a specific model that includes mandatory space concessions to design.  Actually, isn't Chambers and Erin Hills the only new courses that the USGA has ever considered to be placed in the rotation?  I think the developers, both the municipality and Mr. Lang might have asked the architects to make sure there is plenty of space for the big show, but it would have been on their wishes, not the USGA coming in before hand and dictating those aspects of design, I don't think..

[Jim Nugent]

How is Chambers Bay likely to change in the next seven years?  Will the course be much different for the Open? 

[Richard Choi]

Oh, I don't know... maybe the fact that more "people's Open" (like Bethpage) will draw more people to golf while banning stuff like "cheaters line" will push more people away (people already think golf is too rules obssessed)?

[Tom Yost]

I played golf a few weeks ago with some people in the industry and heard about a rumor that the USGA will bring in Rees "The Open Doctor" Jones in to make some changes to prepare his brother's course for the US Open.


Tom

[Garland Bayley]

I think it came about, because the developers and RTJ II had the goal of creating a course that could host a major championship. Therefore, it is my understanding that they solicited the USGA and PGA for suggestions. I don't believe the USGA went about offering ideas on their own. Therefore, I don't think it is their answer to TPC courses.

[Norbert P]

  I was curious if the input of the USGA may have changed any routing or layout decisions at the site. For example, the driving range is within the golf course, which, in essence, pushes #8 and #9 up the eastern slopes. In my humble, unpaid, unexperienced armchair opinion, the 8th would fit better running down below, where the driving range is, with the 9th tee shooting UP to the 9th green.  But, if the OPEN dudes wanted to put up pow wow tents for corporate entities, they'd want them out of the playing area. So, does anybody feel or know if the USGA involvement ultimately had an effect on routing?
  One other thing.  If the USGA gurus did come in, who paid for flights, lodging, etc?
 I'm not trying to play Kolchak, just curious if anybody thinks that the result would have been different without the input. 
 

[ward peyronnin]

Slag

Log on to the USGA site and Mike Davis describes that he was alerted to CB by the director of the Oregon PGA section.
He drove up to see the place after he had conducted a rules school in Portland( to which i can attest because i was there also). So i don't imagine there was much gratis involved on that trip at least; can't speak to any susequent ones that may have happend altho i don't recall Mike mentioning any others

[Joe Hancock]

Oh, I don't know... maybe the fact that more "people's Open" (like Bethpage) will draw more people to golf while banning stuff like "cheaters line" will push more people away (people already think golf is too rules obssessed)?

I don't know of one person in Michigan who took up golf because the Open was played at Bethpage Black. In fact, it would surprise me if you asked 100 Michigan golfers where Bethpage State Park is and more than a smattering said New York.

On the other hand, I don't know that people are avoiding golf for it's rules, but they sure are because of time commitments.

Joe

[Richard Choi]

I don't know of one person in Michigan who took up golf because the Open was played at Bethpage Black. In fact, it would surprise me if you asked 100 Michigan golfers where Bethpage State Park is and more than a smattering said New York.

On the other hand, I don't know that people are avoiding golf for it's rules, but they sure are because of time commitments.

Joe

Hmmm. I do know for fact that New Yorkers are very proud of Bethpage and every golfer in the area I know loved the Open that was held there and it grew their interest in golf.

And when the US Open was awarded to Chambers Bay recently, the local sport radio talked about that constantly for a couple of weeks, which I would think would have inspired some people to go out and play. But I doubt that anyone in Michigan really cared about that either.

Should we abandon all other efforts in growing the game if any of them have no effect in Michigan? I didn't realize Michigan had the veto power on everything related to golf.

And I just did a quick poll of my co-workers and they just laughed at the "cheater line" and accused golfers as being anal.

Do my anecdotes rebut your anecdotes?

[Joe Hancock]

Do my anecdotes rebut your anecdotes?

Possible, as your points are not without merit, nor are mine. I didn't mean to make a pissing contest out of it or have it be a right or a wrong thing.

However, let's not allow the game to get bogged down with the things that have more potential to slow it down rather than speed it up.

I should have used Illinois in my example, that way it might sucker Shivas into taking up the debate.

Have fun with your co-workers. I have strong shoulders.

Joe

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Chambers evolved from a focus group put together after the purchase of the gravel pit in the early nineties.  That focus group and subsequent plan foresaw a large park for the use of county residents similar to the other jewel in Tacoma, Point Defiance, which is owned by the metropolitan park district. 

The original plan included play fields, a boat launch and a public golf course for use by the local populace.  Fast forward several years and place John Ladenburg into the County Executive chair.  Ladenburg began to develop a broader more grand plan for the property.  What wasn't clear at first was the scale of the plan.  When after further planning, the county executive announced that the $14 million design for the golf course would be chosen over the $7 million design of local John Harbottle, it began to come clear that this would not be a playground for locals but one with much greater goals.  Ladenburg began to openly discus that a PGA tour event would come to the course and that ultimately it would hold a major, it would be an urban Bandon Dunes. 

Locals began to realize that it would be far more expensive than any other course in the area and on top of that it would be walking only, further excluding many other locals unable to take the 18 hole trek which is more than average in its physical demands.  The real question became whether the County Executive could fulfill these rather grandiose promises. 

Tacoma was described as the City of Destiny in the 1890's.  At about that time an ill advised political struggle erupted between the city forefathers and James J. Hill, railroad tycoon.  Hill decided that Tacoma was too much trouble and he moved his rail terminus to the north.  There was a small town called Seattle there.  This mistake by Tacoma politicians seemed to have doomed the city to perpetual failure.  It was a gritty blue collar town famed for its Tacoma aroma that emanated from the local pulp mills.  There were mornings in the seventies when the smell of rotting eggs hung like poison in the fog.  It was that downtrodden dirty city that I fell in love with. 

You have to understand the histroy to understand the consternation that rose when yet one more brash, big talking politician started making promises that seemed impossible to keep.  Whose pockets was he lining was the unspoken question as he spent wildly on Ladenburg's folly. 

$20 million later, locals felt disenfranchised as all of the talk was about rich travelling outsiders would fill the golf course. 

Now of course in retrospect it is known that the county and RT Jones II were seeking out the advice of the USGA and the PGA Tour as to the features that would be needed for hosting a major or a tour event.  The three hundred flat acres to the south will blossom with corporate tents and villages for the media.  Dunes were flattened an made just the right size for placement of bleachers.  When you play, notice that the right side of 18 is a long flat pad, I noticed on my most recent round in February that their is large flat area along the right side of six from which I assume the 11th can also be seen.  The railroad tracks are planned to be used to move spectators in from as far away as Seattle and Olympia.  And the course is big and open enough to hold more paying customers than any Open to date. 

This is big business.  The County had an outrageous plan to bring these events, the Amateur and Open, to Chambers Bay.  I think as a taxpayer that they risked an awful lot on the hope that this would happen.  They did their homework, they got the big players involved early and Ladenburg just might be governor of the state in 2015. 


Unbelievable!  Now we need to see how it will all hold up to Tiger and the boys of the tour!

[Norbert P]

The original plan included play fields, a boat launch and a public golf course for use by the local populace. 

...   When after further planning, the county executive announced that the $14 million design for the golf course would be chosen over the $7 million design of local John Harbottle, it began to come clear that this would not be a playground for locals but one with much greater goals.  Ladenburg began to openly discuss that a PGA tour event would come to the course and that ultimately it would hold a major, it would be an urban Bandon Dunes. 

This is big business. 

Thanks Bill. Your big picture report explains a lot.  Are the boat landings and playing fields nixed, or are they still in the plans?

The place is impressive but what a price to pay - with tax dollars of residents who (mostly) don't golf.  The debt load alone is a hungry elephant in a lettuce patch.

Like you say . . . "This is big business."



 

[W.H. Cosgrove]

At last check the plan is still a go.  The boat launch has always been a huge sticking point as local boaters need a spot to put in their boats. They were very vocal during public hearings about the plan.  It will be on the south end of the property on Chambers Creek.  Its a quiet inlet where boaters can pass under the R.R. bridge to the sound. 

The next piece planned is a bridge over the tracks to the beach.  I assume it will cross near the old shack near #17.  The state legislature provided funding for the pedestrian bridge in this years budget.  Construction was planned for 2010 but may now go forward in 2009.  I am guessing that the bridge will provide crucial infrastructure for the Open. 

The rest of the plan is uncertain.  Chambers was pretty quiet for several months before winter rates were lowered and the tournament selections were made.  The promise by government officials had always been that the golf course would be a cash cow to pay for the improvements.  With the selection as an Open site, the course now seems very busy and these projects could well go ahead.  I would expect grading to be completed south of the course for the corporate areas.  The grading of course would be in line with the remainder of the project. 

[Steve_Lovett]

The golf course is a relative bargain for locals as compared with those from out of town...  I think I saw on the website that greens fees in season are something like $94 for residents and $154 for non-residents. 

It's all relative, but wouldn't locals in places like Scottsdale love the opportunity to play a course like CB in season for that price?

Granted, it's not a course that serves the "Joe Six-pack" golf population - and I'm not sure the quality of the site lends itself that way.  If a less-elite & less impressive course was built, wouldn't the outcry be just as loud that the site which, by all measures, is one of the best anywhere didn't have it's potential realized?

 

[Sean Leary]

Steve,

Late summer and fall the place was VERY uncrowded at thos prices. Hopefully for them, the Open news will make it busier...

A lot of the Seattle crowd wants to wait until it matures a bit before they play it, or play it again..

[W.H. Cosgrove]

The golf course is a relative bargain for locals as compared with those from out of town...  I think I saw on the website that greens fees in season are something like $94 for residents and $154 for non-residents. 

It's all relative, but wouldn't locals in places like Scottsdale love the opportunity to play a course like CB in season for that price?

Granted, it's not a course that serves the "Joe Six-pack" golf population - and I'm not sure the quality of the site lends itself that way.  If a less-elite & less impressive course was built, wouldn't the outcry be just as loud that the site which, by all measures, is one of the best anywhere didn't have it's potential realized?

 

Its all relative.  You can join the nearest private club to Chambers for $750.  The Home Course which opened at the same time is $28 for seniors on weekdays and they have carts.  Regular rates are only  $35.   I don't think its possible to compare what might be happening in Scottsdale to Pierce County. 

Your point on the site is well taken and certainly the bet that John Ladenburg and the County made.  They took a huge risk and won big.  We will never know what Harbottle would have done with less money.  As a local, I wish they hade gone with a routing paralleling the water in more of a St Andrews looking routing which would have placed more holes on the water and provided a much easier walk. 

We have what we have.  Its very different for the local market.  It has been awarded a US Open.  Come on out and play it.  We have availalble hotel rooms!

[Steve_Lovett]

Sean - that's interesting/surprising...  

Do you attribute the lack of play to price?  To the newness and lack of conditioning/maturity?  

I wonder if the walking-only nature of the course & caddie program will turn some public players away.  Many have become so accustomed to carts for convenience sake, and some public players may be intimidated by the alternative requirement for caddies...  I have many friends who don't own a bag you'd ever want to walk with - or have someone carry.  Not sure...

[Craig Van Egmond]

I asked a number of gentlemen that I used to golf with regularly when I lived in the greater Seattle metroplex if they had played Chambers Bay yet and none of them had. All cited the walking only policy and high cost as relative to rest of golf in the area.

[Steve_Lovett]

Bill - I will be out there in May and am hoping to play Chambers Bay then - unfortunately at out-of-town prices...!

I agree with you regarding Scottsdale.  It is a major seasonal golf destination - moreso than Tacoma to be sure.  My point was that Chambers is probably superior to just about anything you'll find in Arizona, and if you found something similar it would probably be nearly double the cost in season...

I'm certain Harbottle would've delivered a very fine golf course, although my perception of what has beein built is that it is world class.  Do you think that John Harbottle's "name" is getting saturated in that area w/Gold Mountain, Washington National, etc?

How much play at Chambers is Pierce County?  How much is regional Seattle/Tacoma area?  How much is national destination play?

Which club can you join for $750?  I'm surprised the Home Course is only $35 - that sounds like a great value...

[Steve_Lovett]

I asked a number of gentlemen that I used to golf with regularly when I lived in the greater Seattle metroplex if they had played Chambers Bay yet and none of them had. All cited the walking only policy and high cost as relative to rest of golf in the area.

I think the walking-only will turn many people away in a non-resort and non-private club setting.  Much of the Publinks golfing public might be intimidated by the caddy program, or are accustomed to taking carts.  When you look at a dead-flat course like Willows Run in Redmond and see the number of carts out there it's obvious that the convenience (laziness) has become the norm for many.

None of my friends have played Chambers, but it has generated a lot of "buzz" in the area nonetheless - if not play.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm curious is anyone has any real data and numbers on what an Open can do for a city/community in terms of bringing in dollars.  It sounds like it was the plan all along to get a big tourney in, but what does that mean in terms of money for the coffers?

Will the exposure and the holding the tournament be enough to pay for most of the course, or is John Q. Public still left holding the massive portion of the debt load?  Sure at older established sites, its all gravy because the land and course are paid for, but what will this mean specifically to Chambers Bay in terms of helping to foot the bill?

As a side note, I can also say that a $94 course in Salt Lake City wouldn't go over so well either.  Right now, the best Public course in these parts, Thanksgiving Point, is only $60 in peak season, and its always easy to get a tee time there due to the average $25-30 rates found elsewhere. Pricing really has to be considered on a market by market basis and it sounds like the Seattle market won't readily buy at that price either.

[Garland Bayley]

...Right now, the best Public course in these parts, Thanksgiving Point, is only $60 in peak season...

Don't confuse best with most expensive.

[Kalen Braley]

...Right now, the best Public course in these parts, Thanksgiving Point, is only $60 in peak season...

Don't confuse best with most expensive.

They are one in the same in this case Garland.  TP is indeed both the most expensive and best public course in the Salt Lake City area.  I'm not claiming its necessarily in CB's league, but its a pretty darn good course. 

[Richard Choi]

Personally, I stopped playing Chambers Bay after 3 rounds (last one in August) since I could not justify paying $170/round when greens are so immature and slow.

I hope to play more than 3 rounds there this year, but with the recession, they may have to lower the price a bit even with the US Open coming.