[Rich Goodale]

Richard,

In reply to your statement. I am pleased for you that you are aquainted with Mark which is something I am not. You quite rightly say you know him as a person and a golfer which I can not say other than what I have read here on the GCA. I do however take exception to you comments directed at me which seem to me to be of a negative character. I would like to know where you have met me or know of my golfing game that you could make such a comparison. Case of the kettle calling the pot black, perhaps?

Jon

No offense was intended.  I was just having a Lloyd Bentsen moment.  Sorry that you seem to have seen youself as Dan Quayle...

The overall point that Mark (I think) and others are trying to make is that regardless of ability, improved knowledge about distances will be of value to every player.  I don't see how you (or anybody) can disagree with that.

awra bes' fur the noo

Rich

[Mark Pearce]

Jon,

Hitting 80% of 7 irons at least 140 yards does not equate to 5 yard accuracy.  Dave Pelz studied golfers full shots and found a bra-shaped dispersal.  Generally good for length but missing one side or the other.  Also, a really well struck 7 iron might go 155.  I'm a good (people say a very good) ball striker for my handicap.  My problem is direction, course management and short game.

I am not saying that 80% of my 7 irons fly between 140 and 145 yards.  80% fly more than 140 yards.  And, of course, that's the 7 iron.  Like most golfers (and certainly most high 'cappers) I'm less solid and consistent with longer clubs.  Also, there's no point worrying about distance on mis-directed shots (other than that if, for instance, there's water long left I'm likely to take the option, if available, which means a hook won't reach).  Frankly, your stats just don't work (where do you get 96% accuracy from, for instance).

In a round I might expect to hit 9 or ten rounds in regulation.  I'm afraid I also expect to take 36 putts.  Not all golfers are the same, you see.

[Kyle Harris]

Guns speed up the game - of course, it can be done as you walk, what, no, can't get a correct reading, so you have to stop. Therefore playing a round (as described below) by yourself without a gun must be faster.

I was taught to play as follows (as I posted the other day)
 
c)Walking up to the ball from your previous shot working out
   distance, obstacles/hazards/bunkers, then decide which club to play.
   By the time you have reached the ball you have selected your approach
   shot then go through the final motions of re-checking ball, flag,
   distance, correct stance, relaxed, final look keeping eye on the ball,
   swing and hit the ball, like millions of people have done for around a
   100 years.

Thank God, the art of playing golf still survives in some of use. Its a simple basic skill to master and perhaps if its speed you want, this way could be quicker too.

Melvyn, ever need glasses or other corrective lenses for near-sightedness?

[C. Squier]

Melvyn, ever need glasses or other corrective lenses for near-sightedness?

Better yet, us natural lefties who are right-brained have better depth perception.  Lobotomies for everyone!

[Melvyn Morrow]

Kyle

Are you saying that those who use these aids do so because of sight problems, well then, fine, if there is a medical reason, would not want
to stop anyone playing golf.

Yes, your comments make sense, now I see why most use them.

Don’t tell me any more of your medical details, as none of my business.

Golf can be great fun, keep trying.

PS For the record I am ambidextrous, in Table Tennis I lead with my left.
      In my youth I was kept in beer most night by playing Snooker with
      alternative hands to the frustration of others.  Check mate, Clint.

[C. Squier]

Kyle

Are you saying that those who use these aids do so because of sight problems, well then, fine, if there is a medical reason, would not want
to stop anyone playing golf.

Yes, your comments make sense, now I see why most use them.

Don’t tell me any more of your medical details, as none of my business.

Golf can be great fun, keep trying.

PS For the record I am ambidextrous, in Table Tennis I lead with my left.
      In my youth I was kept in beer most night by playing Snooker with
      alternative hands to the frustration of others.  Check mate, Clint.

I'm sure you're both-eye dominant too.  But I digress....my comment was made in jest, hope there is still room for that.

Let me ask 2 questions about what seems to be your 2 presumptions:

1.  Golfers who use aids do so because they can't correctly guess yardages.

Is it possible that users of yardage aids could be BETTER at correctly guessing yardages than the person who never uses one?  Sounds like behavioral conditioning to me, YAU (yardage aid users) have constant reinforcement of actual yardages.  Take away the YA, but the mental pictures still exist.  Not exactly a dog and a bell, I know, but in the same zip code. 

2.  YAU aren't having as much fun as you are.

Based on what evidence?


This discussion has definitely gotten the mouse on the wheel inside my head.  I'll have an opportunity to play a semi-new course to me (I've played it twice) next month on back-to-back days.  They'll be the first rounds of the year, so I can use my rusty swing as a fairly decent control group.  One round w/ a rangefinder/sprinklers, the other blind.  I'm eager to see what the results will be with as many variables controlled as possible. 

[Jon Wiggett]

Mark,

most golfers golfers miss the target short rather than long a majority of the time. Working on this and the fact that the error length short and long is generally the same says to me:

1. that hitting average 145, with 80% atleast 140 means that 80% of the shots are going to land between 140 and 150 or a 5 yard dispersal from the 145 mark. 5 yards is 3.45% of 145 yards giving a 96.55% target accuracy.

2. Although you might well be an exception to rule, and lets face every golfer is an exception to one generalism or another I was looking at the average. I don't believe I said you couldn't do it just it was stat. wise not the norm.

3. Accuracy of length and line are related to each other due to the reasons I have stated previously and although it is more than possible to hit balls of equal length both left and right generally a pull/hook will be longer and a push/slice will be shorter.

4. While with a push or a slice the timing of the swing is different there will be a diverence in result.

5. For the above reasons if you hit 80% of your shots atleast 140 with the 7 iron but the longest are 155 yards it would suggest to me that you hit the ball closer to 155 with a well struck shot and average nearer the 150.
(I am just going through my thoughts not trying to get cute ) This in turn means a doubling of the spread of shot leading to 30 feet not 15 feet. This, combined with a short game with potential to improve could explain the 36 putts around .

I have done stats with hundreds of golfers over the years and my
My experience is that player's image of their game and the reality is very often different. By addressing the correct points many shots can be saved.

Rich,

no probs. I do agree it is of value or atleast can't hurt but it is maybe not of as much value as many people think. I also am of the opinion that judging the distance by eye is one the skills that a golfer should be required to use and that local knowledge should be an advantage.

[Mark Pearce]

Jon,

Your point 5 is true.  The putting's bad in any event.  If I can sort that I'll be plenty of shots better than a 12.

Mark

[Rich Goodale]

Two words, Mark

THE CLAW(tm)

[Melvyn Morrow]

Clint

Answer to yesterday’s questions

1) I don’t know why golfers use electronic distance aids, maybe they can’t
    read distance. I am saying I don’t, don’t want to and don’t feel the 
    need, whether for the competitive edge or for my ego. I get to the flag
    in the time honoured way. If by using them you feel inferior that’s your
    problem not mine.

2) As for fun, how can I tell if you are having any fun, all I can say is that I
    am, and frankly that’s all that matters.

Use then, don’t use them, I just don care. I can only speak for myself. I am proud to play the game my father taught me, his father before him, my great grandfather before him and my great, great grandfather. If you can’t or don’t want to use brain/eye coordination and happy with an electronic aid. Well whatever you do behind closed door that’s your business, keep pumping the irons.

My family has been played golf for nearly two centuries, and I will continue honouring the way I was taught.

Surprise yourself, go and play a course you have never seen before without any electronic aids, then play a few more and see how you feel.

[RSLivingston_III]

Clint

Answer to yesterday’s questions

1) I don’t know why golfers use electronic distance aids, maybe they can’t
    read distance. I am saying I don’t, don’t want to and don’t feel the 
    need, whether for the competitive edge or for my ego. I get to the flag
    in the time honoured way. If by using them you feel inferior that’s your
    problem not mine.

2) As for fun, how can I tell if you are having any fun, all I can say is that I
    am, and frankly that’s all that matters.

Use then, don’t use them, I just don care. I can only speak for myself. I am proud to play the game my father taught me, his father before him, my great grandfather before him and my great, great grandfather. If you can’t or don’t want to use brain/eye coordination and happy with an electronic aid. Well whatever you do behind closed door that’s your business, keep pumping the irons.

My family has been played golf for nearly two centuries, and I will continue honouring the way I was taught.

Surprise yourself, go and play a course you have never seen before without any electronic aids, then play a few more and see how you feel.

Totally agree with your posts.
I hope one day we might be able to play a round together.

[Pete Lavallee]

Melvin,

I am exttremely interested in just how you play the game.
Do you use distance at all?
Are you aware of the yardage on par 3 holes?
Do you insist that the hole yardages be blacked out when looking at a scorecard from a new course?
Do you consider have a pin sheet with hole distances cheating also?

Thanks in advance.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Peter

My game is no different than most in the UK, I am armed with a score card and am aware of the length of each hole. As I have mentioned before I walking up to the ball from my previous shot working out distance, obstacles/hazards/bunkers, then decide which club to play. By the time I
have reached the ball I have selected my approach shot. Then the final motions of re-checking ball, flag, distance, correct stance, relaxed, final look keeping eye on the ball, swing and hit the ball. Nothing special, nothing out
of the ordinary, just for fun and pure enjoyment. I am an average guy, I don’t need to prove anything to anyone, least of all myself. To me this is what golf is all about and why over the years it has attracted millions to the sport. Also I prefer the fun of new courses (not new in the sense of just built, but ones I have never played), challenges unknown and only armed with a scorecard (if available – i.e. honesty box, 9 hole course – don’t tend to have any).

The large well known courses like The Old or New are great, but are busy,
So my preference is the smaller courses which give me the desired enjoyment I seek. Courses that I have mentioned before. Bridge of Allan, Cullen, Tarland, and Strathpeffer Spa to mention but a few. 

Thanks Ralph, another true golfer

[JohnV]

My family has been played golf for nearly two centuries, and I will continue honouring the way I was taught.

Good for you.  I assume you are still using hickories and featheries also. 

You are welcome to play the game any way you feel like doing so.  So am I.  At least as long as we're both playing by the rules.  If I play a course or in a tournament that doesn't allow range finders I won't use mine.  Otherwise I will when I feel like it.  That makes me no less a person or a golfer than you in my opinion.

[Melvyn Morrow]

John

‘That makes me no less a person or a golfer than you in my opinion’.
I agree John, but you are using an artificial electronic aid to help you.
What I don’t understand, if you play without them why do you feel the
need to use them on other courses?

Perhaps we should ask the designers to include multi-distance markers
in the form of features in their design. If that is not acceptable then the cheapest way is to mark a golf course out as a football field, with white
line across the fairway, every 10 yards up t, say 170-150- yards from the
flag then every 5 yards up to the green. On the greens, mark white circles
at 1 yard centres as per a dartboard around the flag. Problem solved!!

That’s what you guys want; clear, easy to read distance markers. Every
time I see a golfer with his books of distance notes or electronic aids, it
just reminds me of playing golf on a grid or dartboard. I wonder where the satisfaction comes from at the end of a round – from mastering the books/aids or from your own abilities.

In my humble opinion a course with painted grids would look like a joke and I would not be seen dead on it.

As for your comment  ‘I assume you are still using hickories and featheries also’, it’s the usual type of comment I get when someone can’t find a good reason for their own stance/argument.

[Pete Lavallee]

Melvin,

Thanks for answering my questions, although you missed one: Are yardage sheets wth the distance to the pin cheating also? All Tour Pros use them in conjunction with their caddies. Should these be allowed?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Pete

IMHO No - I believe we would all be better off without them.
 
I can see no problem with scorecards, the odd marker as you
progress down the course.

We all are meant to be playing golf, not driving in a car with
Sat. Nav.

Do you do things by the numbers at home or in the office - no
don't answer that one - I certainly do not wish to know.
 

[Mark Pearce]

Two words, Mark

THE CLAW(tm)

Those words send a shudder up my spine.  In a world of many resorts, that's the last (well, not quite, the belly thing is after the CLAW).

[Pete Lavallee]

Pete

Do you do things by the numbers at home or in the office - no
don't answer that one - I certainly do not wish to know.
 

This could cut to the crux of the problem; I'm an engineer, are you a poet or philosopher?

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