[Jon Wiggett]

It takes about 5 seconds to get a yardage with a Bushnell Pinseeker.  How is this slow?  I'm willing to bet that if there were no yardages on a golf course, the average player would take a lot longer than 5 seconds trying to figure out and guess how far he is away.

Not to mention the extra time playing the next shot after they guess the wrong yardage.  And you can't say that that only affects low handicappers.  Basic probabilty says that unless 100% of your shots are hit at completely random distances, taking out the extra variable (yardage) will yield more accurate golf over time. 

CPS

Clint,

you counter your own argument. In general double digit golfers do not have the required distance control for yardages to make a difference. I know that there are many who think they can but most of these are kidding themselves. Distance control requires an understanding of the effect of the wind, elevation change, temperature, humidity, ground conditions and the players daily form to calculate and even this doesn't mean you can carry it out.

[Mark Pearce]

It takes about 5 seconds to get a yardage with a Bushnell Pinseeker.  How is this slow?  I'm willing to bet that if there were no yardages on a golf course, the average player would take a lot longer than 5 seconds trying to figure out and guess how far he is away.

Not to mention the extra time playing the next shot after they guess the wrong yardage.  And you can't say that that only affects low handicappers.  Basic probabilty says that unless 100% of your shots are hit at completely random distances, taking out the extra variable (yardage) will yield more accurate golf over time. 

CPS

Clint,

you counter your own argument. In general double digit golfers do not have the required distance control for yardages to make a difference. I know that there are many who think they can but most of these are kidding themselves. Distance control requires an understanding of the effect of the wind, elevation change, temperature, humidity, ground conditions and the players daily form to calculate and even this doesn't mean you can carry it out.

No.  Clint's argument is absolutely, 100% valid.  Just because the high handicapper, whose 7 iron might go anything from 100 yards to 140 yards on any particular shot, doesn't have the distance control of Tiger Woods doesn't mean he doesn't, on average, gain a benefit from knowing that the flag is 130 yards away rather than 145.  His clubs will each have an average distance and a spread.  By choosing the right club he can enhance his odds of hitting the green at all and/or avoiding particularly unpleasant hazards.

As to all the factors involved, my experience is that nearly every golfer understands this, even if they can't elucidate it.  They have a natural understanding (not the same as being able to make the adjustment) that each of those factors affects the distance a shot will fly.

[C. Squier]

Mark, thanks.....exactly my thoughts. 

[Melvyn Morrow]

Yardage

I am being serious, so please bear with me as I am just trying to understand the use of this aid.

Let’s get down to basics; yardage is the distance from the ball to the flag.

If you play the same course a few time you get to understand distance by measuring from certain markers, feature or natural items like trees, rocks etc. Do those that use yardage aids still use them on a familiar course or only occasionally if your ball rests on a different area to normal?

If it’s your first time on a new course, I expect you use your aid at each stroke to determine distance. Therefore the aid has helped you confirm distance and through that assisted in selecting your ideal club for the shot

What I don’t understand is that you still have to take the shot, your mind and body are not automatons, your brain controls your movement, grip, swing and I presume you re-check the route, lay of the land, position of flag, the direction of the wind, make allowance for the weather and surrounding area before starting your swing/shot. In other words you recheck the whole approach details prior to hitting the ball - the only difference is being aware that the distance is XXX yards because of a marker or yardage aid. The stroke is purely the result of mind/body combination confirmed from your final sight check of your ball and target and has nothing to do with the information obtained from your artificial aid otherwise you would just walk up to the ball and hit it it’s prescribed distance. You see my point; the final stroke is down to you sighting the target and sod all to do with the aid, so why use them. You have proved you don’t need them to play, why on earth use them. So the same must applies to all golfers, including the Pro’s, the re-check prior to taking the shot is done by brain/eye coordination taking in visual view of target. Are you telling me that you are all so uncertain that you need a distance aid – sorry what rubbish, your last actions determines the shot. 

I just do not see the need for high tech aids, however if you need distance markers to play your golf, then, why not use the course markers?

If aids help that much, I keep wondering why, when teeing off the Rangefinder is not used, for that matter when putting on a large Green why again is the aid not used, surly the same argument applies measuring distance from the flag – or is it that you can judge it better with your eyes? Or could it be something to do with looking totally ridiculous and stupid.

Distance markers are only really needed by the commentators to advise those watching on TV or listening on the car radio.

Unless you tell me that the final shot is programmed direct into your brain from the artificial aid and that you do not re-check prior to taking your shot – No, no one is surly saying that, are you? 

Guys you just don’t need them.

[JohnV]

Melvyn,

I use mine all the time unless I'm given a hole location sheet and am almost next to a known yardage.  Why?  Because it is quicker and more accurate than any other way to do it.  Yes, I could just use my eyes and guesstimate the distance.  Do I get it right?  Sometimes.  Does that make me a better player?  No, I'm a better player when I can get some accurate information rather than just by estimating the distance.

I assume you never look at the yardage on the scorecard or a sign at the tee when you walk onto the tee of a par 3?  Or look at the location of the stone in the ground relative to the tee markers?  Does your club use different colored flags to show front/middle/back locations?  Do you somehow block the color of that from your mind?  If playing with a caddie do you ever listen to him about the distance from the hole or do you tell him to just shut up?

When I played 100+ rounds a year at Pumpkin Ridge, I didn't need to look at the yardage markers much.  Besides I had most them memorized.

There are dozens of things we can use to get information about yardage.  Range finders are just one way to get distance, nothing more nothing less.  Even with that, we do have to take all the other factors mentioned into consideration before making the stroke.  Why does it matter so much to some that a quicker, more accurate and modern way to do that one task is used?

You may be holier than me, but I'm as quick a player as anyone.  I am a little quicker with the laser than without.

As for using them from the tee, I have done that to see what a particular carry or the distance to a dogleg might be.  Fortunately I rarely have the honor these days so I can do that before it is my turn to play.  I've used them on the putting green, but only when setting hole locations for a tournament.    It is quicker and more accurate than pacing.  I don't think they are much use inside of about 40 yards as feel and the decisions on how to play the shot take priority over the exact distance.

[JSlonis]

Melvyn,

I just don't get it.

There are numerous factors to consider when playing a golf shot to the green, are there not?  The #1 factor above everything else is YARDAGE...the proper yardage.  If I have a shot and determine it's slightly uphill, with a cross wind, the temp is a little cool, & I have the proper yardage from the get go, I can make a decision on the club and type of shot I want to hit and go.  If I FIRST had to guess at the yardage and factored in all of the other stuff, what good is that, it is pretty easy to be off by 10-15 yards if you are 175 yards away.  Indecision never helps my game. 

I thought the idea of the game of golf was to get from the first tee to the 18th green in the fewest strokes possible.  Having the proper yardage will help me do that.  If someone wants to just stroll around the course guessing at distances and hitting shots, I guess that is up to them.  You may disagree, but for me, that is not GOLF. 

[Joe Hancock]

This all makes me wonder how the heck anyone ever took to the game back in the 19th century. There couldn't have been much to like about it until we discovered and invented a fun way to play.

Joe

[Sean_A]

This all makes me wonder how the heck anyone ever took to the game back in the 19th century. There couldn't have been much to like about it until we discovered and invented a fun way to play.

Joe

Joe

I know where you are coming from.  Its as if the game was invented when the first yardage marker was placed.  I still know two guys that don't think in terms of yards.  They just eye up a shot and select a club and type of shot they think will work best.  Nah, it couldn't be, they must have a yardage book up their sleeve.

With all the experience many people on here have with the game are you telling me you can't figure out the distance for most shots?  For the ones you didn't get right, can't we chalk those up to the archie and try to get him next time?  Is the score you acheive that important to take away an element of the game that is so intriguing? Aren't you ever pleasantly astounded when you airmail one or come up 25 yards short?  Doesn't a mistake like that keep you coming back?  Its all part of the ups and downs of a GAME of golf. 

George F

I use aids when they are on my way to playing the game.  I don't buy yardage books or go out of my way for yardage.  I wish I could avoid the damn things altogether, but its tough to walk with my eyes closed.  Perhaps its a toss up between a seeing eye dog and yardage gun. 

Ciao

[Richard Choi]

It is silly to argue that we should elminate yardage aids because of the architect's desire to cause confusion for the golfer.

Unless you are going to have a marshall on every one of these hole who do not allow you to advance past your ball position, I can just walk up to the mound to check out and see where the pin position is. Heck, I can just walk to the side of the fairway where I have a good view of the green and walk back.

All it would do is to slow the game down.

I don't understand the reasoning behind this "case".

[Joe Hancock]

Richard,

No need for concern, it's just a philosophical discussion.

Gadgets and markers and such are here to stay. Society says so.

Joe

[RSLivingston_III]

As a traditionalist, I hate to say that I found an ad for yardage discs available for sale back in the middle of the golden age.
I thought I tagged it but can't find it now. It was in American Golfer or Golf Ill. and was amongst other items in the ad like hole cutters,  mowers, sandboxes, etc.
As I remember the wording suggested the use of just the one disc per fairway.
If I can find it again I will post it.

[Sean_A]

It is silly to argue that we should elminate yardage aids because of the architect's desire to cause confusion for the golfer.

Unless you are going to have a marshall on every one of these hole who do not allow you to advance past your ball position, I can just walk up to the mound to check out and see where the pin position is. Heck, I can just walk to the side of the fairway where I have a good view of the green and walk back.

All it would do is to slow the game down.

I don't understand the reasoning behind this "case".

Richard

Are you really trying to make a case for guns based on pace of play?  Are you telling me that the game is gonna be significantly quicker if everybody uses guns?  I can see the game perhaps getting a bit quicker, but I don't think obtaining yardage is the main reason for slow play.  It is my observation that people are generally slow because they choose to be.  If they chose to be quicker they would be.

Ciao

[JSlonis]

I guess for those of you that like to play a game resembling golf, that would rather go out and eyeball things the old fashioned way, have at it.  Golf should be fun, if it's fun for you to hit what you think are great shots and they airmail the green or come up 25 yards short, then go have fun.

I'll stick to my "fun" version of the game and try to shoot the lowest score I can for that particular round. 

I think you are fooling yourselves if you don't think that guys who played 100 years ago didn't have some way to measure their way around a golf course even if there weren't yardage markers.  I would place a sizable wager that players kept track of the clubs that they hit from particular spots on the course and had some sort of system in place.

[Kirk Gill]

There are numerous talents necessary to play the game of golf well. There are numerous variables inherent in each shot that must be taken into account by the golfer.

The science of playing golf is a process of simplification whereby as many variables as possible are taken off of the table. Robotic, repeating swing.....check. High quality, matched, balanced set of clubs......check. Pristine, consistent turf conditions.........check. Relentless, dogged practice regimen..........check. Exact knowlege of the distance of every shot on the course............check.

Mr. Slonis says "If I FIRST had to guess at the yardage and factored in all of the other stuff, what good is that, it is pretty easy to be off by 10-15 yards if you are 175 yards away.  Indecision never helps my game." That, I think, is exactly the point that many are making regarding their disregard for yardage aids. The notion is that the ability to make that 10-15 yard decision on your own, independent of something that gives you the answer, is one of the talents necessary to play the game, and should be tested. The science of golf wants to remove that variable, and as has been said often on this thread, folks have been working at that since the beginnings of the game. Perhaps the first technology, then, that should never have been allowed on the course was the notebook and the pencil, with walked-off yardages. Once memory was out as the main method of keeping track of distances, the cat was out of the bag. At this point, what does it really matter? The game of golf is intrinsically bound with the science of golf now, and it's still fun to play.......even for luddites.

[Joe Hancock]

JSlonis,

It sounds almost as if you think there would be an advantage to a player who had superior mental abilities than one's opponent, according to your last statement about memorizing places on a course and remembering what they hit last time under similar conditions.

I bet those thinkers would be pissed about losing that advantage during competition.

Joe

[Jon Wiggett]

No.  Clint's argument is absolutely, 100% valid.  Just because the high handicapper, whose 7 iron might go anything from 100 yards to 140 yards on any particular shot, doesn't have the distance control of Tiger Woods doesn't mean he doesn't, on average, gain a benefit from knowing that the flag is 130 yards away rather than 145.  His clubs will each have an average distance and a spread.  By choosing the right club he can enhance his odds of hitting the green at all and/or avoiding particularly unpleasant hazards.

As to all the factors involved, my experience is that nearly every golfer understands this, even if they can't elucidate it.  They have a natural understanding (not the same as being able to make the adjustment) that each of those factors affects the distance a shot will fly.

Mark,

you mean knowing the exact yardage even though you can't hit and understanding about outside effects even though you can not compensate for them still will improve your game If this is so then I guess your right but whats the point of knowing something you will never be able to use?

[TEPaul]

"Are you really trying to make a case for guns based on pace of play?  Are you telling me that the game is gonna be significantly quicker if everybody uses guns?"

Definitely!

You know the trouble with you Sean Arble, is you seem completely incapable of seeing big picture in anything to do with architecture or golf.

The game will be significantly quicker if everybody just carried guns but if they actually used guns out on the course you're damn straight the game will be significantly quicker. Laser guns, .22s, .38s, .45s or even AK-47s. Would you really take close to five hours to play a round of golf if the group behind you all had AK-47s and they started using them on you?

If it were me I'd play my round faster than a red-assed rabbit.

[RSLivingston_III]

I am just waiting for the next great "improvement" in the game, laser guided golf balls.
After that I expect some computer driven device to hit the ball for you.
Then everyone can achieve that holy grail of shooting the lowest score possible.

[Jim_Kennedy]

No one yet has ever done better than hitting 75.2% of his GIR for a full season on Tour (guess who) and no one is even within sniffing distance of 1 putt per GIR, something like 1.7 is usually right around the 'best'.

Yardage aids? A.E Neuman had it right.

[RSLivingston_III]

No one yet has ever done better than hitting 75.2% of his GIR for a full season on Tour (guess who) and no one is even within sniffing distance of 1 putt per GIR, something like 1.7 is usually right around the 'best'.

Yardage aids? A.E Neuman had it right.

But isn't this because they keep lengthening the courses and narrowing the fairways every year?

[Jim_Kennedy]

I highly doubt it Ralph. The stat numbers stay fairly constant over a great number of years, even for the 'worst' player (about 56%), from 1980 forward. Conversely, clubs and balls have added distance, negating any additional course yardage.

[RSLivingston_III]

I highly doubt it Ralph. The stat numbers stay fairly constant over a great number of years, even for the 'worst' player (about 56%), from 1980 forward. Conversely, clubs and balls have added distance, negating any additional course yardage.

But the increased distance increases inaccuracy.

[Jason Topp]

I'm not much of a fan of these devices.  I find it hilarious that guys playing at my club, who have played 50 rounds a year for 20 years on the same course, suddenly think they need a gps.  

But, for those opposed to distance aids ---

Why do you care?

If they do not help, then they are harmless.
If they do help, what marginal benefit is there above a yardage book?


I have probably played 10-15 rounds with GCA people.  In every instance, I believe my playing companions wanted to know the relevant yardages for their next shot.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Well Ralph, then I guess all the flap about equipment turning our courses into pitch and putts for the Pros is hogwash.  

My larger point is this: no matter what aid you might employ to help you make decisions, you still have to translate that into actions and there is no 'aid' that will ever be invented to do that.



 

[Sean_A]

JSlonis,

It sounds almost as if you think there would be an advantage to a player who had superior mental abilities than one's opponent, according to your last statement about memorizing places on a course and remembering what they hit last time under similar conditions.

I bet those thinkers would be pissed about losing that advantage during competition.

Joe

Joe

I guess the guys that take the game so seriously don't play practice rounds anymore.  Doesn't seem like there is much point - just buy a book, a machine and perhaps a local caddie if there is any dosh left over.   

To be fair, I could care less about the advantage or disadvantage from using a machine.  I object because a machine is yet something else which separates a golfer from the discovery of the game.  If folks can't see the difference between a player learning a course and a player using a machine, book or whatever aid to do the legwork, then there ain't much else to say. 

Ciao

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