Is Hitting Every Club in the Bag a Sign of Good Architecture?

[Mike_Cirba]

I believe that building a course where top golfers would need to hit every club in the bag was both desirable and feasible in George Crump's day.

However, as I used to argue with my "How long would the 18th hole at Merion have to be for Tiger Woods to hit Driver, 1-iron, like Hogan did in 1950?" tagline, due to the technologicial arms race this is no longer feasible.

I think I worked out one day that a course requiring Tiger Woods to hit every club in the bag would be about 8300-8500 yards long.

[JESII]

A well built "lay-up" tee shot should count. Putting 2-3 or 4 irons in the hands of these guys is not feasible on many par 4's, but a great 360 yard hole that discourages the driver is a wonderful way to challenge a players long iron skill...

[Paul_Turner]

Re Verdant Green's article;

The only PVGC plan that we're aware of, that got heavily used and was placed under glass was Colt's.  I can't see why Crump and Co would be consulting plans of Walton Heath, Beau Desert etc.

[Mike_Cirba]

Re Verdant Green's article;

The only PVGC plan that we're aware of, that got heavily used and was placed under glass was Colt's.  I can't see why Crump and Co would be consulting plans of Walton Heath, Beau Desert etc.

Paul,

I don't think it was Fowler's plans they were fascinated with, per se, but more so his philosophy of design as well as his writings and focus on building an "ideal course". 

Based on the incredible wealth of "inside information" in both the Joe Bunker and Verdant Greene articles from the time, there is no question that the writer(s) was in Crump's "inner circle", and I've speculated that it may have been William Poultney Smith.

[Mike_Cirba]

A well built "lay-up" tee shot should count. Putting 2-3 or 4 irons in the hands of these guys is not feasible on many par 4's, but a great 360 yard hole that discourages the driver is a wonderful way to challenge a players long iron skill...

Jim,

Do you think Crump would have counted a "lay up" tee shot as part of his "ideal course"? 

btw, where's the picture of Ab Smith??!   

[JESII]

Nobody has a clue who AB Smith was...still waiting for one more answer though...



I think Crump would be happy with #8 at Merion as it is the best current example I can think of...

[JESII]

Think of the long irons a player on Tour is going to hit at Merion...

Second shot on #2
#3
Second shot on #4
Possibly #5
Probably #6
Tee shot on #7
Tee shot on #8
Possibly #9
Possibly #10
Tee Shot on #11
#17
Possibly second shot on #18 (admittedly, not after a full bore drive. I think the 210 approach from the top of the hill is better than 160 on the downhill)


That's 12 shots that I think could call for a 3, 4 or 5 iron for the guys on TV.

[Paul_Turner]

Re Verdant Green's article;

The only PVGC plan that we're aware of, that got heavily used and was placed under glass was Colt's.  I can't see why Crump and Co would be consulting plans of Walton Heath, Beau Desert etc.

Paul,

I don't think it was Fowler's plans they were fascinated with, per se, but more so his philosophy of design as well as his writings and focus on building an "ideal course". 

Based on the incredible wealth of "inside information" in both the Joe Bunker and Verdant Greene articles from the time, there is no question that the writer(s) was in Crump's "inner circle", and I've speculated that it may have been William Poultney Smith.

Mike

Ok. But I don't see much similarity between Fowler's courses from that time and PV.  Pine Valley is much more akin to Sunningdale and St George's Hill than it is to Walton Heath...

[Mike_Cirba]

Paul,

No question about that.  In fact, we have an article talking about Crump's visit to GB in 1910 where it mentions that the one course that really impressed him the most was Sunningdale.

I get the feeling that what he and his close associates admired about Fowler was;

1) His theorizing on building an "ideal course", and speculating on what should be the make-up of that hypothetical course.

2) His philosophy, which today would be known as minimalism, or even naturalism.  Fowler was a huge advocate of using natural features.

3) And finally, his work ethic and approach.   Fowler was perhaps the first of the Pete Dye type architects who spent a LOT of hands-on time on site sorting out the routing and construction details.   I'm sure Crump saw Fowler as a kindred spirit in that respect, although Crump probably took that approach to a sad extreme.

[TEPaul]

Mike and Paul:

It is my distinct sense that #1 was of maximum importance to Crump (and friends). #2 probably had some importance but nothing like #1. I doubt any kind of work ethic of Fowler's was of much interest to Crump and Co. They were basically just following the Macdonald/NGLA "amateur/sportsman" single project modus operandi where a huge amount of time dedicated to the project was a given. For George Crump at that time in his life Pine Valley was not some avocation or sideline project. It was more like an addiction and it became increasingly so as time went on. At that point, the man did not have a job or a wife and family (as Hugh Wilson did) and he had effectively vacated his grand home in Merchantville which his mother had been installed in. Pine Valley was Crump's life----for the last six years of it.

[Paul_Turner]

Mike and Tom

Other than vague similarities, I don't see much similarity between Fowler's ideal course and PV? 

[John Burzynski]

I don't feel cheated if I don't use every club in my bag.

As long as the shots on the course are of a sufficient variety, that is all that I ask.  I might use my 5 iron on approach several times a round, but it might be uphill, downhill, side lie, whatever.    Courses with a natural  rolling topography help to break the monotony if you end up using the same approach clubs every hole or two. 

Frankly, with my game, I might use most clubs or just a few on any given day anyhow, I get into trouble on the course more than I am willing to admit. 

A couple years ago, I did drop from 14 clubs to carrying 10 or 11 standard, I found that my 4, 6, and 8 irons were pretty shiny, as I tend to always use the odd numbered irons for some unusual reason.   Combined with my Sunday Bag it makes for a nice and easy walk.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike and Paul:

For George Crump at that time in his life Pine Valley was not some avocation or sideline project. It was more like an addiction and it became increasingly so as time went on. At that point, the man did not have a job or a wife and family (as Hugh Wilson did) and he had effectively vacated his grand home in Merchantville which his mother had been installed in. Pine Valley was Crump's life----for the last six years of it.

Tom,

One thing I was surprised to learn recently was that Crump was still involved in competitive golf in the mid-teens and played in the US Amateur in both 1915 and 1916.   The latter at Merion wouldn't have been a big deal, but the year before it was in Detroit.   

[wsmorrison]

Didn't Crump lose something like 14 and 13 in Detroit?  Against Travers I believe.

[TEPaul]

Mike:

Even though Crump seemed to spend most all his time at PV between 1913 and 1918 he certainly did not stop playing and competing in golf. He was the medalist in one of the PA Amateurs at Oakmont in or around those years and it would not surprise me if that didn't motivate him to do those "churchpew" bunkers on #2.