O.T. (sort of...) club walking policies

[Garland Bayley]

...and I know that the cart fee for walking is becoming something of an industry standard at for-profit courses both public and private.  I'll take the good with the bad.

Peter Pittock says they just did away with the mandatory cart fee at the Reserve Vinyards. Therefore, I believe this conclusive sample size of one shows you are mistaken that it is becoming an industry standard, as it clearly is on the way out.
 

[Peter Wagner]

Peter, Scott & Bill,


"Cart rentals are not a true profit center for most clubs". 


Here are some real quick numbers about some real cart rental income and expenses. 

18 hole private course in Atlanta with 72 carts.

Cart income for 2007
(37,000 PAID rounds)                                 $569,000

Cart lease  (72 carts)
($68 per cart per month)                                                  $58,752
Not a lot of people buy their carts

20,000 square foot clubhouse
average monthly electric bill ($5,000)
AND let's assume 100% of that
goes to carts                                                                    $60,000

Cart path construction
(asphalt)  $350,000 that
say lasts 7 years or so. 
I get to depreciate that capital
expense (and operators LOVE
non-cash expenses)                                                        $50,000
Let's assume 50k a year for repairs
and path maintnence--VERY HIGH BTW

Cart staff for the year  (High school kids at
$8 an hour)                                                                      $75,000

Total                                                         $325,248
 
Carts make money for a facility. 


Peter--The surest loser for most clubs is to get rid of carts and "re-decorate the cart barn for a bigger dining room"!!  Also, beverage carts are not nearly as profitable (when at all) as people think.

Hi Chris,

You know what, you're right... my statement "Cart rentals are not a true profit center for most clubs" is too general.  I'll amend it to say "Cart rentals are not a true profit center for MY club".

The numbers at our clubs are very different in this area as we do:

12,000 total rounds with about 9500 on a cart which yields about 190,000 in revenue.

We buy our carts @ 5k and sell them for 1k after three years so our cost per month per cart is $111 per month or about 96k per year for the fleet. (Maybe we should lease???  )

Your electric bill guess is too high - it's probably more like 12k per year.

Our cart path maint budget is 90k per year (cement).

Our barney staff (cart maint) is at about 135k.  (Even high school kids won't work for min wage in SoCal.)

So in a comparison you can see our numbers are very different.

But you left out a really big bogey in this calc:  ask your super how much he could save in his maint budget if you were to significantly reduce cart traffic.  Again, I'm sure your numbers would vary from mine.  We have bent fairways that don't like carts and we constantly fight soil compaction issues.  My super's best guess is that he could trim 10% off our maint budget if we went to zero carts.

In my case (I gotta remember that phrase!) I would love to delete the fleet.  This is of course unrealistic and you are right to point out that there are many cases where members just won't or can't walk.  Nevertheless, we are trying to promote walking to our membership for many reasons with financial reasons being high on the list.

Sorry for the generalization.

Best,
Peter

[Lou_Duran]

Jason and Cabell,

As I communicated via IM with A.G. Crockett and briefly alluded to here, I went through this exercise back in the 1990s at my home club of over 20 years.  American Golf took it over in an incestous relationship after the club was sold to an American Golf controlled real estate investment trust (REIT), and among the first actions it took, it imposed a mandatory riding policy on weekend and holiday mornings during the Daylight Savings Times months.

I fought it on several fronts including getting a petition signed by over 100 members asking for a reversal, petitioning the USGA to use their bully pulpit since that organization was in the midst of its "Walking Member" campaign, and becoming a shareholder in the REIT with thoughts of getting the SEC involved on the basis of special rules requiring arms length dealing between owners and managers of REITs(both had the same head).

Nothing positive came out of my efforts, in fact, when AGP threatened to or put the REIT into bankruptcy, the settlement included a sale to a Goldman Sachs affiliate which resulted in a 50% loss of my shares' value.  To add insult to injury, the USGA's response to my plea was that they don't get involved in a club's operational issues; I think the USGA staffer remarked that they are not in the practice of telling their member clubs how to cook their hamburgers.

One of the things I tried to do was to show the club that since most of the members rode anyways, 70 - 90%+, depending on the time of the year, that the rule was not necessary.  I can't remember the exact numbers, but based on the number of unfilled tee times in the morning shift and the number that typically walked during the hottest months- mid June through mid-Sptember, that they could more than make up the revenues by having one extra guest day per month.  I also showed them that if 10 walkers left the club over the policy, the whole program would be a loser.

Needless to say, they did not relent, though they do now have a couple of guest days per month in season, and one each week the rest of the year.  Over the next couple of years, my group of a dozen or more broke up, with about half eventually leaving the club.  Tee times and tournament slots became widely available and the club has been running continuous membership campaigns to secure new members.  That is not to say that all this resulted from just the mandatory riding ram down, no doubt that the competitive market had a bearing, but the managment company mindset of one size fits all definitely undermined the camaraderie that had been developing at the club since the mid-1960s when it was founded.  I joined in 1981 and left at the end of 2004.  To my detriment, I allowed the mandatory riding rule to poison my experience, and it was totally unnecessary from the club's standpoint financially as well.  Most members chose to ride, but the managers wanted it all.     

[mike_beene]

My club has an open walking policy with one big exception: we allow fivesomes.which I think is ridiculous anyway,and when the carts are off the paths a fivesome must ride. I have almost quit several times.If we are ready to go and a friend shows up wanting to play thus making us a five,I hate to be rude.It has led to a few angry days,but I am not riding my own course.

[Jason Connor]

Clubs that insist on allowing 5somes should rule that it can't be more than a 3-ball match.

[J. David Hart]

Every club is a case to itself, it depends on management and the amount of play. A member should be supportive of its clubs policys, but yes new management in and screws things up! My club is small (deliberately) and I
personally would just love to get rid of the blank things cause they eat all my so called profit. And most importantly I just feel golf was meant to be a walking game. Generally my walking members have the best attitudes and are a joy to see and visit with weekly.
Peter W. ....more on this mutiny thing, how can I get my members too,... so
I can retire??? Welcome!

[mike_beene]

Jason,the shame of it is we are not overly crowded.No fivesomes before noon.So three fivesomes go off at noon Sat and Sun playing a 5 ball making our Sunday afternoon game take 4 hours at best.I refuse to ride in a cart behind that if we end up with five.It is frustrating enough as it is.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Chris,

You're right, I heard the pros & % of cart fees thing awhile ago, I guess times have changed.

One thing not in your equation is a cart barn (since your cart area is in the basement, I think?).  Many clubs have monster separate cart barns that cost $ to be built (overhead) and more to maintain (continuous cost).



I agree with some of the guys above in that I would quit in a second if my club started mandatory riding (& obviously would never join one in the first place if the policy was that way already).  The TPC network of clubs generally allow walking, but ONLY if you rent the Kangaroo Kaddies.  No way I'd ever do that, either.

[A.G._Crockett]

A great discussion, gentlemen.  Thanks for the input.

As an aside, for those of you who feel that you would quit a club if it had restrictive walking policies, don't be too sure.  If that club is your best/only option, and/or where your buddies are, it isn't so simple. 

By way of a very bad analogy, it is kind of like saying that if you were going to spend the rest of your life in prison, you'd rather be executed; sounds good, feels right, but almost nobody ever chooses the death penalty when actually confronted with the choice.

[Sean_A]

The most amazing thing to come out of this thread is that at some places 5 balls are allowed.  What sort of proper game can you have with a 5 ball that you couldn't have with a 3 and a 2 ball?  I would really hate if my club got in the habit of allowing 5 balls.  In fact, I would like to see the opposite.  Early morning times reserved for 2 balls then progressing to 3 balls and finally to 4 balls by say 10:30 or 11:00 am. 

Its a pity that clubs have come to rely on carts as part of the revenue budget.  It seems to me that it would be much better all around if carts (and caddies) were taken by those who chose to do so.  Its a crime to institute dopey rules at a club of leisure.  It defeats the purpose of membership - especially when you consider that at many of these clubs the savings or cost of having carts/caddies is neither here nor there for the membership. 

Ciao

[Brent Hutto]

As an aside, for those of you who feel that you would quit a club if it had restrictive walking policies, don't be too sure.  If that club is your best/only option, and/or where your buddies are, it isn't so simple. 

I understand the dilemma. Personally, I would be forced to leave the club if they didn't let me walk. And not being able to walk on weekend mornings is the only thing that really matters as that's when I play. In fact the first private (for-profit non-equity) club I joined only last 3-4 months for me because of this very issue although I must say I hadn't really found a regular group yet so leaving was easy.

It's not a serious problem but the large crew I usually play with on Sunday mornings are mostly walkers except for about ten times a year when the club has an organized "tournament" of some kind involving a shotgun start. All of my buddies play in those and even the walkers don't begrudge taking a cart for the day...except for me. I know that makes me seem standoffish or stubborn but I honestly don't enjoy the game in a cart and so I just go play twice around the alternate nine by myself and have a nice time.

So in your situation I'd be between a rock and a hard place. I wouldn't want to lose playing with a bunch of guys I'd known for a long time but golf in a cart is neither as fun nor or as healthy for me as walking. Not sure what I'd do, hope my club never puts me in that position.

[Bill_McBride]

Peter, Scott & Bill,

Do any of you own a club and operate it as a business?  I guess owners and GMs are just morons and we should thank our lucky stars that omnipotent boards can do math

"Cart rentals are not a true profit center for most clubs". 

OK??  What evidence do you have for that statement?  Any?

"Don't pros still get a piece of every cart rental fee?  They have no incentive to encourage walking." 

What decade is this notion from???  Maybe, MAYBE years ago a few pros had a percentage of the range, carts, club repair, lessons, etc.....but that comment today shows how out of touch the average golfer is with the industry.

Chris, my point was not that private operators of golf courses don't make money on electric carts, of course they do.  The point I failed to make is that, from my experience as a director and golf chairman at a private club, is that I don't think the accounting that member-owned clubs use to make decisions is very accurate when it comes to figuring the true, complete bottom line costs of operating a fleet of carts. 

Or for that matter, a fleet of maintenance equipment or a ballroom / banquet facility.

It's usually a matter of incorrect allocation of overhead costs by function.

[JMEvensky]

We allow 5-somes with the Pro's permission.To split up into 2-some/3-some usually does more pace of play harm than good when weekend mornings are wall-to-wall.Further,why would you ever want to tell a member he can't play because there's already a 4-some?

As to cart policies,in the Deep South,it really doesn't matter whether carts are net losers(and they're huge net moneymakers at my place),few people want to walk.

We're currently having the "unrestricted walking" discussion now.My guess is this will be approved because the number of cart rentals lost will be infinitesimal.It will be a cheap way to garner some goodwill from the 2 or 3 people willing to trek 5 miles in 100* heat.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Interisting topic.

My view on carts is by now more than well known, they should only be available to those that need them (to be able to play golf). Golf is not yet an arm chair sport and clubs should be encouraging player to play the game in its original form. To change the face of golf to increase revenue is just no excuse. Is this the future of Golf, to constantly take the easy route, to be lazy, sit on a cart rather than walk, to use all possible aids because it’s quicker and easier, than using the combination of brain and eyes. I am starting to wonder if it’s becoming an offshoot of Motorsport.

As for 5 ball, well taking Royal Dornoch into account, they have many slow 4 ball (usually by overseas visitors using caddies) that have made some overseas and home Members resign or not want to renew their membership. To suggest 5 ball, may see the 7 hour round becoming the norm, not to mention persuade others not to play a course with that policy.

I fully understand that I am a lone voice, but for my faults I want to see golf continue in the form that originally interested me in the first place. I fully expect the testosterone junkies to belittle my belief‘s but I will remain true.

[Sean_A]

We allow 5-somes with the Pro's permission.To split up into 2-some/3-some usually does more pace of play harm than good when weekend mornings are wall-to-wall.Further,why would you ever want to tell a member he can't play because there's already a 4-some?

Ah, because thats how the game is played - in 4s or less.  Membership shouldn't matter unless the club allows everybody to play in 5s.  If a group is more than 4 and they don't know who is turning up on any given day they should play outside peak times unless of course the club doesn't have tee times in which case it doesn't matter.  The balls are in the shute and whoever is ready tees off.  Everybody can have a game with their mates so long as you are willing to break up. 

Ciao

[JMEvensky]

I think the best clubs operate with the fewest rules.To stipulate that X group must have X players at X time doesn't take into account people's harried real life situations.Ultimately,a club's members must go along/get along.The alternative is a paid employee(Head Pro) telling a dues-paying member "no".For a million reasons,that's a disaster waiting to happen.

In practice,there are no restrictions on 5-somes.Most prefer this to the above-referenced alternative-emphasis "most".

Plus,our scorecard says the same thing most others do-"Allow faster groups to play through".

[Lou_Duran]

I think the best clubs operate with the fewest rules.To stipulate that X group must have X players at X time doesn't take into account people's harried real life situations.Ultimately,a club's members must go along/get along.The alternative is a paid employee(Head Pro) telling a dues-paying member "no".For a million reasons,that's a disaster waiting to happen.

In practice,there are no restrictions on 5-somes.Most prefer this to the above-referenced alternative-emphasis "most".

Plus,our scorecard says the same thing most others do-"Allow faster groups to play through".

Couldn't agree with you more.  At the club I was referring to earlier, 5-somes are very common and for the most part, specially the big gamblers, they play faster than the average group, and everyone is required to ride.  They very much prefer riders at this club than walkers.

I don't like to play in a 5-some as it seems like I am always waiting for someone to hit or I am in somebody's way.   The only objections I should reasonably have is their speed of play and how they handle the carts to minimize the damage to the course.

On this latter point, they typically do not do a very good job, going directly to their ball and parking them all over the place.   Another phenomenom is how many of these guys will take a cart out by themselves.  As the pro shop typically only charges each golfer for half of the cart, it is not unusual to have four and five carts out with the group.  Sometimes it looks like a fire drill going on out there.

 

[Brent Hutto]

The public course where I learned to play c. 1994-1998 used to have a sixsome of "gamblers" (I don't think they played for hardly any cash actually) who went out every Saturday plus a couple weekends right during prime time in the mornings. They usually had four or five carts between them and at a course where under-four-hour rounds were routine they would play at about a 5-hour pace day in an day out.

The hell of it was that when you caught up with them, if you were a foursome they'd grudgingly let you through after a few holes. If you were a single or twosome they just told you to skip and hole and play around. I never did found out what sort of relationship they had with the owner but what a bunch of kneebiters.

[JMEvensky]

At my place,the 6 player/6 cart group is only a weekday phenomenom.On weekends,it's not an issue.

Believe it or not,allowing 5-somes tends to encourage walking.Most will go out on carts with 4-baggers attached.Everybody walks some and rides some.Not perfect,but not exactly cartball,either.

[Tim Pitner]

A 5-ball is ridiculous.  I played in a fivesome at my father-in-law's club some time ago, where everyone takes a cart even though the course is flat, rather short and has no long walks between greens and tees.  Anyway, with 3 carts and 5 golfers playing ready-golf, it was a total clusterf***.  I don't consider that golf.