Old meeting, their minutes, archives and the reality of them

[TEPaul]

Mike Cirba asking me today if the meeting minutes and archives of GAP (The Golf Association of Philadelphia) are around somewhere and if they are they could shed some light into the time of Robert Lesley and perhaps Merion or Cobbs Creek.

This entire subject, old meetings, their minutes, the archiving of architectural or club material is obviously the base-line raw material of a lot of what we do on here and think about and discuss but the subject itself----old meetings, their minutes, archival material and the reality of them and particularly how to search for them is never really discussed much as an independent subject.

Is it any wonder?

That kind of grunt work or technique is definitely not sexy to do although the occasional find of something really interesting and long forgotten sure is.

I have great respect for the people who do that kind of thing well and are both resourceful and even intuitive about it. Some of the best of them on here become the stars of the show as they should be.

People like certainly Tom MacWood, Shackelford, Wexler, Labbance, Klein, Quirin, and some on here like the recent contributor Melvyn Morrow, and others like Wayne Morrison, Neil Regan, George Bahto, The Creek's George Holland, Joe Baush. Mike Cirba and a slew of others (we all know who you are) and even including the interesting research David Moriaty did on ship manifests for the Merion threads are real assets to this site and to architectural research and understanding.

But the reality of the existence of really good meeting minutes, club and architectural archives in their raw, what we call sometimes "primary document" state is frankly not very good and pretty depressing to contemplate.

The fact is because of various fairly predictable and mundane patterns and reasons over the years too much of it is just gone forever----destroyed accidentally by fire or flood and more depressingly still just thrown out at some point because there either wasn't space for it or people just didn't think anyone would ever care about it again.

I was talking to Bob Crosby again this morning about this and he thinks much of this old newspaper and periodical reporting that largely does exist somewhere and is now being reformated into digital form and so forth is going to be most of our consistent research material and leads.

We're going to have to get used to learning how to analyze and appreciate it.

On the actual old meetings, their minutes and such, even the "diary" entry from the old days and into today, I'll have more to say on some  of their realities later.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tom

Excellent post.

Primary source material is the lifeblood of professional historians. Lately I have been looking into such sources and I agree their preservation has not been regarded.  I think ignoring much of this speaks to the lack of a professional approach to histories in golf.  This is one area where the Internet is going to have a revolutionary effect.  Governments, libraries, and associations are digitizing their archives and collections.  These documents technically are public, but their inaccessibility makes them de facto private; digitization will make them accessible and truly "public."

The value of this effort is that a lot of what's taken as "history" but in fact is hearsay passed on will pass away.

Newspapers are not primary-source materials but they're the next-best thing and in those galleys lay foundational information such as the date MacKenzie sailed for South America, his activities upon arriving in Australia, and what he said to British Greenkeepers in 1913, etc.

Far less is known about Golden Age designs and architects than many assume.  It's like Terra Incognita: the coasts and coastal plains have been mapped, but imperfectly.  And the interior just is not known at all -- or filled with legends and apocryphal knowledge that is the equivalent of sea monsters at the corners...

Even as digitization has only scratched the surface, there's already more out there than many may be aware!  It does help to have lots of patience (search is highly imperfect), diligence, and a keen appreciation for what many will dismiss as minutiae.

In other words, the raw materials of history are being brought closer to the surface; what's needed now is professionalism.  So I guess that's a long-winded way of saying, I agree wholeheartedly!

Mark

[paul cowley]

Mark....very fine post in response 2 a not too shabby thread by TP.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

You wrote, "I was talking to Bob Crosby again this morning about this and he thinks much of this old newspaper and periodical reporting that largely does exist somewhere and is now being reformated into digital form and so forth is going to be most of our consistent research material and leads... We're going to have to get used to learning how to analyze and appreciate it."

This is a most important statement and I'd like to expand on it.

Last May I found a series of articles in the on-line archives of the Atlanta Constitution from 1928. These articles spoke of a new golf club to be built in the heart of Atlanta and given the name Colonial Golf Club. The project had big money and major real estate powers behind it and they hired Tillinghast to design and oversee the construction of it. It broke ground on 10/1/1928 and there are even photos of Tilly in the field with prints and the owners. The goal was to build a golf course that could host the U.S. Open and Amateur in the South. The descriptions of what was planned refer to what would be a magnificent course.

Follow-up articles speak to it's building and opening. The construction was financed by bonds floated by a local finance company. Unfortunately the market crash in November of 1929 brought it to an immediate bankruptcy and failure.

No one knew or had ever heard of this club until these articles were found. The most interesting details, and the reason for this post, was the location of the club & course. The article was highly specific, giving the names of two boundary roads and a third boundary as a railroad. It even mentioned the name of the family whose estate was being sold.

In addition, after consulting with one of the archivists of the main branch of the Atlanta Public Library, we were able to get an exact location for the site of the estate and where the course was built. Remarkably, when all of this was put together, every local map showed it to be the exact site of the Bobby Jones Golf Club!

Tom wrote that "We're going to have to get used to learning how to analyze and appreciate it..." The conclusion I reached speaks to exactly why this is so important. You see, it turns out that even though the Bobby Jones Golf Club has the exact borders that were mentioned in the paper and that it was built on the Collier Estate property, the INTERPRETATION of the facts were incorrect.

In a nutshell, we were wrong.

It turns out that the original Collier Estate was broken into TWO tracts, each given to a DIFFERENT Collier son. The newspaper articles stated that the borders were The Seaboard Railway, Northside Drive and Collier Drive. What was never stated was whether the tract was the Collier Estate NORTH of Collier Road or the one South of it. The archivist assumed it was the one on the North side and so a MISTAKEN interpretation occurred.

The story of how we learned the correct interpretation also shows why it is important to share when finds are made.

In the August 2007 issue of Tillinghast Illustrated I wrote an article about the discovery of this unknown Tilly. A local housewife who doesn't play golf was doing an internet search about the Bobby Jones Golf Club. She is concerned about excess traffic in the area and her search engine poitned her to the article on the Tillinghast Association website.

Greatly intrigued by the history of the area from her own research, she emailed me with a number of questions about the Colonial Golf Club property. I shared the articles with her and two weeks later she called me at home to let me know that she had spent some time doing a search of the county records and not only discovered that there were two Collier Estates, but that there was also another newspaper account that I never found. This one included a map showing the site of the club as being the estate SOUTH of Collier Road.

Since that day I still can't find words that will bring that article up in an internet search. I have a copy of it from my new friend who now, to the delight of her husband, has a new-found respect and interest in golf, but even she can't remember how she found it.

Today the property is developed with homes and even a small park, but no golf course. I am planning to spend a few hours going through the park and neighborhoods with Bob Crosby to see if we can find any remnants of what had once been there.

Lessons learned:

1- Even the best intentions and careful researches can result in incorrect interpretations. In my case it was simply believing what I was told by someone I accepted as an expert.

2- Always go the extra mile. I should have gone down to the County Building Department to check the records.

3- Don't let personal excitement drive an interpretation. The important thing is what can be learned about the truth and to accept it.

4- Accept being incorrect... it happens to everyone.

5- Have FUN doing research... have fun.

[TEPaul]

"Tom wrote that "We're going to have to get used to learning how to analyze and appreciate it..." The conclusion I reached speaks to exactly why this is so important."

Phil and Mark:

I guess what I mean by that are these things:

1. In a broad brush sense we will need to get used to intuiting both the general and specific accuracy of facts and reporting done in some of these newspapers and periodicals. To me the most important of them are ones that are basically contemporaneous to what they're reporting. It seems to me that some on here are a bit too inclined to question the facts and such contained therein if it in some way does not jibe with perhaps their "agenda" and interpretation of events long ago. It seems to me that the more contemporaneous these articles are the more we might be able to trust the accuracy of their facts for fairly obvious reasons----eg if their reported facts were really wrong it's logical to assume that those who have to do with what they are reporting would have made them aware of inaccuracies at that time.

2. It is very interesting to me to try to intuit who some of these reporters were, particularly the pseudonym writers. When you do enough of this stuff it seems pretty evident that some of these writers were really close to the people and events they were reporting and right there in person simply because if they weren't it seems almost impossible to conceive how they could know and write some of the things in them. The recent article on here by a Philadelphia pseudonym reporter about Crump and Co's fascination with Fowler and how they would all sit in his cabin pouring over his plans and articles is such an example. How could that reporter write what he did and the way he did if he was not right there with them?

You're very right Phil----a lot of this isn't just what's in some of those articles, it's the way we interpret what's in them these many decades later. Sometimes that does get a bit hit-and-miss for all kinds of reasons like the one you gave above of border and land misinterpretation. That probably wouldn't have happened with a reader back in the late 1920s.

[TEPaul]

Old meetings and their minutes I find somewhat unsatisfying for their lack of comprehensiveness and the reason may be pretty obvious----even a good secretary who is generally a member of the committee often has a hard time recording the issues being discussed and participating in the discussions at the same time. I should know as I've been doing the minutes of my green committee for a long time and it's frustrating for me. It probably wouldn't be so frustrating if I didn't talk so much in those meeting. 

Recently, I've taken to trying to tape-record committee meetings but I guess I've got to get a better recorder as it picks up a huge amount of residual noise. Or else I've got to get the chairman to try to stop the committee members from all trying to speak at the same time.

I also find back in the old days committee meetings were generally conducted in a much more formal manner in the sense they stuck much closer to "Roberts Rules of Order", if you know what I mean. Compared to today there were far more resolutions presented formally, formally discussed, and then voted on than in most committee meetings today.

Some of C.B. Macdonald's accounts of the meeting he took place in with the USGA on all their issues including Rules is such an example. The fact is back then they seem so much clearer as to what was going on and what was being discussed because they were conducted far more formally.

[Rich Goodale]

Tom

Interesting topic, which I think needs to be taken in context and with perspective.

If you look at many (most?) venerable club histories, you will find that:

1.  They rely heavily on the club minutes
2.  The authors rarely have the time/interest/skill to do much more with these minutes than leave you with a litany of facts of varying interest and relevance.
3.  That being said, these minutes often are invaluable in proving or disproving "facts" and opinions from secondary sources (newpapers, journals, etc.)

One thing that can be said of club minutes (as anybody ever being on a committee will know) is that they are as close to the "truth" as is possible, given that they are signed and vouched for by mostly reasonable and honest men.  So, if architect "A" (or his amenuensis) says that A completely re-designed course B in 1927, but the minutes say that "A visited the course on Tuesday the 25th and offerred some interesting suggestions regarding the 3rd and 4th holes," I know whom I would be more inclined to believe.

I have intimate knowledge of only one set of archives, of a venerable club who kindly let me view them unrestrictedly when I was doing some research for a magazine article.  I was amazed at the detail and eloquence of the writing (this was the 1890-1920 period I was looking at).  It took, however, about 2-3 hours of very focused reading to find the one or two key paragraphs in 3-4 meeting notes (of the several hundred from that period)  to be able to verify a few facts netled in probably two paragraphs of prose in a 2,500 word article.  Such work only pays if you see it as a labor of love......

On the other hand, I have searched for and looked at numerous magazine in newspaper articles from the increasingly available digital archives, and I am both amazed at the volume of information out there as well as the fragility of its quality.  Those who rely only on such 2nd and 3rd hand information to prove their points are doomed to questionable tustworthiness.

Caveat lector.

Rich

[TEPaul]

Rich:

Good points there in 1,2,3.

It does seem like they were much more diligent about meeting minutes way back then. And we shouldn't forget that newspapers and periodicals probably had a "news" dissemination coverage and  importance compared to our day by maybe a factor of five, not to mention the fact that amateur golf in the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century and the clubs dealing with them had much more importance and much more coverage back then compared to today.

[Mike Hoak]

I'm currently trying to finish up a PhD History dissertation, so the topic of primary source availability is one I'm all too familar with.  I specifically stayed away from golf topics in graduate school partially out of fear that primary sources would be difficult to obtain.  This thread suggests I may have been wise to do so.

I just wanted to note that newspaper articles can be incredibly helpful, but they also have significant limitations.  Anyone that has done any in-depth historical research on a given topic will eventually come to a point in their research where two newspaper stories provide vastly different accounts of the same event.  Like any source, it must be analyzed against the other available sources.  I used to give my students at William and Mary two starkly opposed newspaper accounts of a 1930s race riot in Yorktown, VA--one from the local "white" newspaper and one from the local African American newspaper along with a local police report and a National Park Superintendant's version of the events and ask them to make some sense of it all.   

Newspaper coverage of sports provides its own unique challenge because the coverage of sports in most American newspapers was extremely limited up until the early 1920s, although it took off like a rocket after that. 

Does anyone know if the USGA has attempted to index any golf-related journals, magazines, and news articles?  The recent digitization and indexing of slavery records and searchable indexes of the leading historically black newspapers have revolutionized research in those areas.  Have any clubs donated copies of their records to the USGA or other archives?  It would be great if there was a concerted effort by clubs to maintain their records for future researchers.       

[Michael Blake]

Does anyone know if the USGA has attempted to index any golf-related journals, magazines, and news articles? 

Mike, some great stuff here.  Periodicals dating back to 1895 or so.
http://www.usga.org/aboutus/museum/library/segl.html



Tom,  good post.  What I loved most about being a history student in college (15+ yrs ago--yikes!) was the many hours of research spent digging for primary sources.  It was always interesting to find different newspapers reporting on the same event but totally contradicting each other.  One must always be cognizant of the writer's inerpretation, bias, or agenda behind their recording/reporting of history.  Many times, interpretations get (mis)interpreted over and over down the line.

[Sean_A]

Tom

Interesting topic, which I think needs to be taken in context and with perspective.

If you look at many (most?) venerable club histories, you will find that:

1.  They rely heavily on the club minutes
2.  The authors rarely have the time/interest/skill to do much more with these minutes than leave you with a litany of facts of varying interest and relevance.
3.  That being said, these minutes often are invaluable in proving or disproving "facts" and opinions from secondary sources (newpapers, journals, etc.)

One thing that can be said of club minutes (as anybody ever being on a committee will know) is that they are as close to the "truth" as is possible, given that they are signed and vouched for by mostly reasonable and honest men.  So, if architect "A" (or his amenuensis) says that A completely re-designed course B in 1927, but the minutes say that "A visited the course on Tuesday the 25th and offerred some interesting suggestions regarding the 3rd and 4th holes," I know whom I would be more inclined to believe.

I have intimate knowledge of only one set of archives, of a venerable club who kindly let me view them unrestrictedly when I was doing some research for a magazine article.  I was amazed at the detail and eloquence of the writing (this was the 1890-1920 period I was looking at).  It took, however, about 2-3 hours of very focused reading to find the one or two key paragraphs in 3-4 meeting notes (of the several hundred from that period)  to be able to verify a few facts netled in probably two paragraphs of prose in a 2,500 word article.  Such work only pays if you see it as a labor of love......

On the other hand, I have searched for and looked at numerous magazine in newspaper articles from the increasingly available digital archives, and I am both amazed at the volume of information out there as well as the fragility of its quality.  Those who rely only on such 2nd and 3rd hand information to prove their points are doomed to questionable tustworthiness.

Caveat lector.

Rich

Rich is spot on with Minutes.  Even if Minutes aren't very well written they tend to be accurate and neutral, if often sketchy.  There is a reason Minutes are sketchy, usually, they serve to record decisions rather than discussions.  One will often find that the more detailed the Agenda, the less detailed the Minutes.  Unfortunately, as Agendas don't record any decisions, they are often not kept as record. 

Tom is also correct in that proper procedure in terms of debate and resolutions moved without/without notice etc. was more closely followed back in the day.  Chairmanship was an art and still should be.  Nowadays, Clerks are left to basically run meetings behind the scenes. 

Ciao

[Melvyn Morrow]

The storage of our collective knowledge is so important, yet we ourselves are guilty of not adding to our knowledge bank. How many can remember their own family details, surprisingly most find it hard to get past their great grandparents. Yet this is important, because we are talking about real people, without them we would not be here today.

It is impossible for central government to hold all manner of records. But those that affect our own communities should be stored locally. This would allow for the storage of all community records including Golf club details etc., etc.

As a golf site, I will stick to the subject of golf. The history of early golf is most interesting, but it tends to jumps from period to period with minimal amount of real movement until the early to mid nineteen century. As the game grew and clubs started to expand from just the early handful to a few hundred clubs records started to be recorded and more information added. Regrettable the Great War (WW1) seems to be the dividing line. Not really surprising due to the mass carnage, destruction and human turmoil it caused. Many clubs did not reopen after the war in Scotland, the pre-war day trips, steamer excursions and general mood had changed. Clubs failed as not enough members and hardly any revenue form visitors with others clubs devastated by loss of members. Records lost or gone missing, club houses burnt down with loss of all early documents. The amount of information lost from those early 50 years cannot be replaced, precious details of the history of the modern game as it started to spread worldwide. However there is a little glimmer from time to time when the records of an old estate is either opened or gifted to a library or university. These sometimes including some of the very early photographic records of our sport.

The preservation and storage of our sports records are so important to future generations, I hope that new modern clubs are writing down their early history for our own great, great grandchildren to be able to read in 100 to 150 year from now.

During some research I undertook last year, using W W Tulloch’s book as Heinrich Schliemann used The Iliad, I persuaded a club to search through their old records for any mention of fees paid to Old Tom. The club agreed,
keen to confirm the link, so a search by one of their members through all the old archives stored in black plastic bags was started. On the second day, I was told that instead of finding payment records they had found the official deeds for the club, which had gone missing many, many years earlier and feared lost. The search stopped immediately and the club celebrated the re-discovery of their Deeds. They never completed the search, so I have been unable to complete that section of my own research, but at least the Deeds are now safely stored away.

It’s not just records but our actions and deeds that needs to be stored
and safe guarded for future generations.

[Mike_Young]

Far less is known about Golden Age designs and architects than many assume.  It's like Terra Incognita: the coasts and coastal plains have been mapped, but imperfectly.  And the interior just is not known at all -- or filled with legends and apocryphal knowledge that is the equivalent of sea monsters at the corners...

In other words, the raw materials of history are being brought closer to the surface; what's needed now is professionalism.  So I guess that's a long-winded way of saying, I agree wholeheartedly!

Mark

Mark,
You have put in words what I have been trying to say for quite sometime.....while there are exceptional books and histories being written today regarding golf design there are stil many that are loaded with inaccuracies and hyped up BS....and as you say these may become history.....

Over the last few years there was one old gentleman whose father had hired the donald to design our course in 1925....as a young man the father sent this gentleman to Pinehurst to see and study....allowed him all the leeway he needed to aid the course.....even went to Westchester CC in NY to bring the first bentgrass down to our area...... He is a wealth of knowledge and stories.... This gentleman kept records of everything.  Drawings, board meeting minutes, mower purchases.  He kept it all.  I know Bob Crosby had met with him a few times and I started meeting with him twic a month for over a year....taking info and scanning it then returning for more.  His words to me were take what you wish because the S....B's at the club cold care less.  He was right......and I think it happens at many older clubs in this manner...... 

And as you say the key is professionalism....not some statement derived from some guy that plays 20 of one of the ODG course and starts spouting off.....

I sincerely hope it goes toward this.

Mike

[BCrosby]

Great thread. Not much to disagree with.

We are a very small group. Certainly we ought to be doing the right kind of research. It's not easy. It's time consuming. But most of the data is out there if you look for it in the right places.

But to follow up Mike Young's post above. I spent a lot of time with the older gentleman whose father hired Donald Ross to build our course. He was the main source for the history I wrote. His father oversaw construction of the course, stayed in touch with Ross until his death about maintenance, agronomic and drainage, and sent his son (my interlocutor) to spend a summer with Ross and Maples learning about maintenance and grasses.

One day, in the middle of another story, he stopped. He said that years before he had put a note in the club newsletter about a talk he would give to members on the history of the course. All were invited. He reserved a room, prepared some handouts and blew up some old photos. On the appointed day, no one showed up.

So he cautioned me not to be disappointed if the history I was trying to put together didn't generate much interest. Turns out he was right, it didn't.

My point is that as important as the historical spade work is, the way materials are presented can be equally important. Most people aren't as interested in the history of gca as we are. They need stories or some other narrative form that makes all this stuff interesting. Piles of data are an automatic turn-off for virtually everyone without a pre-existing interest in the subject.

So as important as it is to find all this great stuff, we also have a job to do in developing an audience outside this group. I hope that we, as any good historian would, remember that how all this data is presented matters. Almost as much as the historical data itself.

Bob

[TEPaul]

BobC and MikeY:

My God, that is a sad and really depressing story. That poor guy---no wonder he cautioned you both the way he did.

Mike Young and Bob Crosby you know we all talk about these things a lot but I feel pretty confident I can tell you a couple of ways and means to start taking this stuff in a direction with any club or membership that really will get the attention of enough members of any club to make the kind of difference all of us are looking for.

You guys tell me your membership is so different than my membership but frankly I don't believe it. What one just doesn't do is just hire a room and ask people to come. It doesn't work that way---it ain't that simple. It needs a lot more prep than that and the best way is to start to build "ownership" with a membership and there're all kinds of ways of doing that----some perhaps pretty tricky and some not.

Do some or that stuff first and then hire the room and get the attendence numbers in advance. If you're not getting the attendence numbers you want in advance, then don't do it!

There is no question in my mind that either of you could do as effective a job of all this with my membership in Philadelphia as I could do with your membership in Athens Georgia.

Do not lose heart----we can breath some real life into this stuff anywhere if we go about it the right way----and the right way is getting clearer and clearer to me every day.

MikeY---with that post of yours above something tells me you seriously believe that some just miss the boat on this stuff by a mile and some of the rest, particularly on here, might tend to read way too much into it.

I think you're right on both counts.

[Mike_Young]

Tom P,

Truth is I have zero interest anymore in trying to talk to the small faction at our club that TRIES to control everything.  They totally disregarded the older gentleman.....and I really don't the little group that tries to lead our club is much more than an extension of a fraternity from the university.....interesting them in golf architecture would be like trying to interest them in building architecture...ex: say you wanted them in the Wrigley Building in chicago...then put a great restaurant in it and they would tel you how much they liked the building.....if you want them in a room to discuss golf history you need some hookers and big cigars....then they would come.....
However...if they decide it is cool to say you have "ODG#1" signature course....they will spend a few afternoons touring the course with someone and come back and announce that they have seen the light and the cart paths need curbs.....and if you are lucky all the hats in the pro shop will now have the ODG name on the back of them....
TP, as you know I am appreciative of some of the ODG stuff but am also a cynic as to a large potion of it and when it comes to ever thinking a measurable amount of members or golfers will care.....I just don't see that happening.

[Peter Pallotta]

An important and interesting thread. You gents know about these kind of questions/issues, and I don't. But your discussion reminded me of a line by  Tennessee Williams about living and writing both: 

"Snatching the eternal from the ever-fleeting is the great magic trick of human kind".

Which is to say, from my perspective as a would-be learner/reader of your work, yes, yes to careful research of the most primary sources available, but then also an attempt to draw out the perennial truths about golf course architecture (or a given architect/course) in whatever intuitive or speculative or personal way you see fit. I think it makes for the best kind of reading...especially if you make clear in your work where the facts end and the intuition/speculation begins.

Peter

[TEPaul]

".....if you want them in a room to discuss golf history you need some hookers and big cigars....then they would come....."

Hey, Mike, that's a great idea. Try that out at Athens and if it works great I'll try it at GMGC for variety. We've already had enough "normal" rooms and normal meetings on architecture. Champagne and hookers and and in-depth discussion on Biarritzes. I think the hookers might think they're about to get taken to the casino. I think they would enjoy that.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Is it realistic to hope for wide interest in this topic?  Is that necessary for "success"?

They say the Velvet Underground only sold 1,000 albums but everyone who bought one started a rock band.

Maybe the solution is for cadres in clubs -- or in Mike Y's case a Philosopher King -- to find kindred souls in the wider world.

Architect societies are one key, the ruling bodies another.  Maybe this website, too.

Anorak today, Clio tomorrow...

Mark