[Kyle Henderson]

ABSOLUTELY i think it would be just as compelling. 

as long as the sand hazard wasn't substituted by a water hazard (or any type of hazard that offers no recovery shot and only a drop/penalty).  rough or heavy rough would work just fine, though no where near as visually intimidating.

i think TR is so thought provoking because the hazards that you have to decide to play over, across, or around (i.e. the risk) are recoverable and not an immediate drop and penalty shot (TPC Sawgrass 18th) so it teases folks of all levels to take that risk being they are not guaranteed a penalty shot....if they don't pull it off....all in search of the reward:

- driving the green on 5 (if over water, no one goes for it, thus boring golf)
- going for it in two on 11 (if over water, no one goes for it, thus boring golf)
- cutting the corner on 13 (you get the point)
- etc

You think anyone has ever gone for #11 in two, fallen short, and then gone down in that chasm looking for his ball?    It might as well be water in terms of recoverability!

I did once upon a time. The recovery isn't impossible if you get a decent lie at the bottom... Hitting out of a tuft of grass (on the preceding shot) is more problematic.

Ever since, I always aim a little left of the green in case I don't flush it.

[Sean_A]

ABSOLUTELY i think it would be just as compelling. 

as long as the sand hazard wasn't substituted by a water hazard (or any type of hazard that offers no recovery shot and only a drop/penalty).  rough or heavy rough would work just fine, though no where near as visually intimidating.

i think TR is so thought provoking because the hazards that you have to decide to play over, across, or around (i.e. the risk) are recoverable and not an immediate drop and penalty shot (TPC Sawgrass 18th) so it teases folks of all levels to take that risk being they are not guaranteed a penalty shot....if they don't pull it off....all in search of the reward:

- driving the green on 5 (if over water, no one goes for it, thus boring golf)
- going for it in two on 11 (if over water, no one goes for it, thus boring golf)
- cutting the corner on 13 (you get the point)
- etc

You think anyone has ever gone for #11 in two, fallen short, and then gone down in that chasm looking for his ball?    It might as well be water in terms of recoverability!

Bill

Not so fast my fair weather golfer.  I not only went down into the chasm (more than once) I got up and down from there without invoking the local rule. 

Tiger

Sure its a bit awkward to lay up twice right out of the box, but thats sort of the point of having options - no?  Honestly, that shot is not nearly as difficult as a other out on the course.  I didn't use a booklet my first time.  Scott said there is room out to the right so I went right.  I think the second shot is much more difficult with the bunkers over the ridge on the left and the green doesn't quite feed balls in from the left so easily.  It ain't hard to lose it left and have a very difficult chip back even though you are pin high.

Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

Didn't make my top 25.  I thought the routing of 17 and 18 was the worst in the history of golf.  boooo.

[Sean_A]

Didn't make my top 25.  I thought the routing of 17 and 18 was the worst in the history of golf.  boooo.

John

The Road doesn't make my top 25 either, but its still good golf.  I do agree that #17 is a shocker.  Nothing wrong with the hole other than there were already at least two previous long skinny green par 3s, but the quality of this hole isn't sufficient to warrant the routing muck.  They should build another par 3 between the 12th & 13th.  This kills two nasty walks with one stone. 

Ciao

[Chip Gaskins]

Didn't make my top 25.  I thought the routing of 17 and 18 was the worst in the history of golf.  boooo.

sweet.  now i know Tobacco Road is worthy!

[John Kavanaugh]

I think every golfing student in the world should play Tobacco Road to one...See how not to drain a course and two...how not to route a course.  I am thrillled that I took the time to play there.  When you get the chance, do what I did and pay your caddie from Pinehurst to come on over and carry your bag.  The place is unpushcartable.

[Craig Disher]

... The place is unpushcartable.

??. Except for a long hike between the 14th green and 15th tee - which everyone who walks will remember - and a medium one between the 9th and 10th, every tee is a short distance from the previous green. Given the topography, I think that's remarkable.

[David Neveux]

A truly great course for money games, especially MATCH PLAY or a game of CHICAGO (in my circle of buddies it's played as a reverse type of modified stableford).  This isn't to say I don't love the course for what it is, a lot of fun with some very exciting risk (death) / reward shots.  But for those who hate courses where they're inevitably gonna make some large numbers or X's, why not plop down a little cheddar and then you don't take yourself out of the game. 

[John Kavanaugh]

... The place is unpushcartable.

??. Except for a long hike between the 14th green and 15th tee - which everyone who walks will remember - and a medium one between the 9th and 10th, every tee is a short distance from the previous green. Given the topography, I think that's remarkable.

It is not the distances that make the push carts not work....It is the lousy infrastructure that forces the push cart to be picked up and carried up stairs.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Sean I am with you on options but this is a daily fee and the first hole. All those things exist later in the course and work fine. There are some practical aspects to course design and flow/pace of play is one. This is a 5 to 5.5 hour round with a cart as it is. The first two holes set the round up to be slow and cumbersome. That is not a good thing. However one can make the intellectual case about the hole when put in a stand alone environment. However there is this thing called routing which should not inmo be ignored.

[John Kavanaugh]

The course was built in a quarry.  The routing was restricted by nothing except the designers imagination.  It is a blown deal that could have easily been fixed.

[Craig Disher]

I played a 2-ball a couple Novembers ago, both of us carrying. We made it around in less than 3.5 hours without rushing. I don't think it would be possible to play out of a cart that quickly. 

The slow play on the 1st hole might be helped if carts had access to the first part of the fairway. I watched several groups start and about 1/3 of their tee shots were hit into the side of the left dune or were short of the gap.

JohnK - Unless you want to carry it onto the tee box, using a pushcart wouldn't be a problem.

[Mark Arata]

one of the things that made the course pop even more this week was that you had played Mid Pines, Pine Needles, Pinehurst #2, Southern Pines, and Tobacco Road.....one of those things is not like the others.....

I thought it was a very fun course, full of many interesting shots and choices. There was risk/reward on almost every hole, and there really wasnt anything out there that was completely undoable for the average golfer.

It is definatly a course you need to play as a fan of GCA, and probably a few times to really score well on iit. I would not want to play it every day, too much going on, sometimes you just want to hit the ball, find it (maybe in my case) and hit it again, but I enjoyed it, I would play it again anytime, and I think it belongs in the discussion for the list. Probably towards the bottom, but most certainly in the discussion.

[Sean_A]

Sean I am with you on options but this is a daily fee and the first hole. All those things exist later in the course and work fine. There are some practical aspects to course design and flow/pace of play is one. This is a 5 to 5.5 hour round with a cart as it is. The first two holes set the round up to be slow and cumbersome. That is not a good thing. However one can make the intellectual case about the hole when put in a stand alone environment. However there is this thing called routing which should not inmo be ignored.

Tiger

You will get no argument from that the routing is awkward even if it couldn't be any better.  The round can be very slow as well.  Along with the drainage, these are three major setbacks and good enough reasons so far as I am concerned not to give The Road full marks, but damn its fun to play once in a while!

Craig

You and I obviously have different criteria for a good walking course.  Right from the get go there is a walk from the clubhouse to the 1st tee.  Other bad walks include:

#2 green back to 3 tee is back on yourself and holds up players approaching the second

#3 green comes back again to the 4th tee - not a terrible walk, but noticeable

#5 green to the 6th tee is awkward especially to the far side.

#9 green to 10 is a terrible walk

#12 green to 13 tee is a terrible walk

#13 green to #14 tee isn't clever out on the boundary of the course, but the hole is so good I don't mind it so much

#14 green to 15 tee is an awful walk

#17 green to 18 tee is an awful walk straight back up a hill we just descended - this hole is nowhere near good enough to justify the walk especially as there is land to build a 19th hole between 12 & 13

By my count that is half the course with bad walks between green/clubhouse and tee.  I can understand some of the walks and other I don't understand.

Ciao

[mikes1160]

John K,

How would you "cure" Tobacco Road?

ms

[John Kavanaugh]

It is too late.  I would keep it exactly like it is as a tribute to a nice guy.  It it wasn't so bad it wouldn't be so cheap.  I hope to return some day.

[Chip Gaskins]

It is too late.  I would keep it exactly like it is as a tribute to a nice guy.  It it wasn't so bad it wouldn't be so cheap.  I hope to return some day.

so here are your critiques so far:

"I thought the routing of 17 and 18 was the worst in the history of golf.  boooo"....awesome, thanks for insightful info..."worst in the HISTORY of golf"....really.

"See how not to drain a course and two...how not to route a course"....so you think it is wet, fair enough....that disqualifies most every course in northern california and every course in the southeast in the summer.

"It is the lousy infrastructure that forces the push cart to be picked up and carried up stairs".....hmmm....push carts...yeah, that should be something we should use to evaluate a great course.  i think i remember you gushing about bandon dunes.  every try to walk to the second tee box with that silly push cart...oh you can't.

"It is a blown deal that could have easily been fixed."....yep, they should blow it up, just imagine how great it would have been if only you had designed it

i am playing tobacco road in a few weeks and about to pay $112, i obviously don't have your means, that isn't exactly cheap

[John Kavanaugh]

Sorry,  I only payed $60...I did give my caddie a hundo and even let him double bag for patches.  I am much nicer in person.

[Craig Disher]

Sean,
I don't think our criteria are all that different. I didn't mean to suggest that TR is a good walking course but for TR I'll make allowances. Considering some of the outrageous cart-oriented routings that I've seen recently (built on land that could accommodate something much tighter), it's not all that bad. I forgot about the hike between 12 and 13. I heard that there were plans to do just what you mentioned - put a par 3 or short par 4 between them to replace 17. I heard a rumor that the forced march was a result of the club not owning the land to the right of 12; that the club had purchased the property and that the re-routing was under consideration.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

The course was built in a quarry.  The routing was restricted by nothing except the designers imagination. 

And the developers bank account.

Anyone know what was spent to build TR?  How does that compare to other quarry courses?  How does it compare to US Open venue Chambers Bay which cost about $20 Million to build? 

Is World Woods a Quarry?  The Pit is in Pinehurst.  Did anyone wander over there to compare the two?

[Chip Gaskins]

The course was built in a quarry.  The routing was restricted by nothing except the designers imagination. 

Is World Woods a Quarry?  The Pit is in Pinehurst.  Did anyone wander over there to compare the two?

I have played both The Pit and World Woods.  I think The Pit was somewhat a Quarry, and I don't think World Woods was a Quarry.  Both are good tracks, but no where Tobacco Road.

That is probably a good head to head match....World Woods versus Tobacco Road.  Being World Woods was ranked (at least for a while).  It would be Tobacco Road in a knock out in the early rounds.

[Matthew MacKay]

Tiger Bernhardt, it was a pleasure to play with you and Dan at #2...boy, that place beat us up, didn't it?  Loved every minute, though. Can you please shoot me a quick email at mmackay@rcga.org  Thanks.

Craig and I played TR on Sunday in fairly windy conditions. I loved the course for all the reasons previously stated, but agree that a daily dose wouldn't be good for my sanity. I do feel that the course is almost unplayable for higher handicaps and women...the woman we were paired with basically quit playing halfway through the round. Craig (very good player, as you know) said he'd never go back...

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Matt Dan and i enjoyed plaing Pinehurst 2 with you guys as well. It was a wonderful golf experience. I will email you in a few minutes. cheers

[JESII]

Chip,

Is John's analysis of TR really any worse than your "you have to hit a blind long iron layup on a par 5" analysis of Merion...

If I recall, your view of Merion were painted more by not meeting your lofty expectations than by what's on the ground.

I am of the opinion that everyone gets an opinion, and I enjoyed how you introduced yours about Merion, but the shoe seems on the other foot now and when someone takes a shot at a course you love you have not hesitated to gt a bit ugly about it.



Personally...I went to TR a year ago after hearing significant praise on here and having 20 rounds at Royal New Kent under my belt. With RNK, I was able to put aside my distaste for a forced cart ride and absolutely love the place...so naturally I went into TR with high hopes and left wondering what all the fuss was about...I don't know it well enough to critique but I can tell you that the next time I am in the neighborhood, it will not be near the top of my list of things to do...

I haven't played any of his other courses, but did he build any that let you walk?

[Chip Gaskins]

Chip,

Is John's analysis of TR really any worse than your "you have to hit a blind long iron layup on a par 5" analysis of Merion...

If I recall, your view of Merion were painted more by not meeting your lofty expectations than by what's on the ground.

i don't remember calling Merion "the worst in the history of golf"

i don't recall saying Merion should be referred to as "how not to route a course"

and i certainly didn't say Merion was a "blown deal that could have easily been fixed"

i also apologize for your perception that i "have not hesitated to gt a bit ugly about it."  actually i was just taking cues off this board where people aloofly throw out statements like JK did about TR and then not back those statements up with any real substance...

what i DID say was:

- i thought #3 was a bad hole (i still do)
- that blind layups with long irons to slivers of fairway bordered by heavy rough like #4 and #11 were poor designs (i certainly still do, however there have been numerous threads where we all agreed that it was more of a maintenance practices by the club since the 70s-80s than bad design)
- how great the #14 green was
- how much i loved the #15 & #17 holes

re-reading what JK wrote and re-reading what i wrote i struggle to see how you can say his analysis of TR isn't "any worse" than my analysis of Merion.

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