[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I know this course gets a good bit of buzz on here. I played it for the first time this weekend. It was a wild fun and yet head scratching experience. One of my playing partners and poster on here got the nickname Tr during the round from all the career shots he played on a course that lends itself to dramatic and heroic shots. I found it to be a work of art and kinky joy only surpassed by Painswick. However the first hole is a horrible opener(blind hard shots) and the 2nd hole leaves one clueless where to go creating a lot of confussion from the start. There are several dangerous places on the course as well. The ninth green is not designed correctly for the iron plus shots coming to it. I see enough things like this to keep it off the top 100 yet one keeps finding  brillance there which makes one want to find TR in the rankings. I so understand the passion this course generates and hope we all find our way there during their golfing life.

[Chip Gaskins]

tiger- your two flaws are the only real two i see as well.  #1 tee shot, #9 second shot, otherwise a thought provoking, risk / reward, immensely fun experience!

i was corresponding with Chris Brown, head pro at Tobacco Road, this weekend and he told me there were 32 Golf Week rankers there this weekend.  So hopefully Tobacco Road will start to get a little more respect after this weekend.

[corey miller]

Tiger

Can you explain your belief that there are "dangerous places on the course"?

Would this be a factor or one of the things you would cite as keeping it off the top 100?

thanks.

[Dan Herrmann]

It could well end up out of the top 100.  It polarizes opinion.  It certainly isn't golf as the masses expect.

FWIW, I really liked the place - a lot. 

[Matt_Ward]

Tobacco Road proves the point that design should be celebrated when it moves in a different and unique direction. If every course were to follow the same formula then the utter uniqueness of such offerings would become less and less so. Candidly, I'm not interested in playing the same version of course "A" in all types of situations.

People who come to Tobacco Road need to adjust their games accordingly and check their ego at the door. I like the course because it flies in the face of convention. Not everything there works 100% but what makes it compelling is that it takes the risk in trying to include design elements that clearly take thinking and shot execution to a different level.

For those who are enamored with "classic" design the time spent at Tobacco Road may well mean a yearly supply of aspirin. Nonetheless, I agree with many here on GCA who see it as a fascinating layout that offers a design dimension that is truly outside the scope of predictability.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Chip I think the course gets lots of love. It also get lots of other feelings. I do not think it is particularly well designed for over 20 handicaps or older players. There are far to many forced carries and jail locations even after a ok shot. Corey I am not sure why it is or is not a top 100. It seems to bring out extreme emotions in many people and moderate ones in few. It is a course to me that has a place in the discusion forum of great golf courses in America even if it does not make the final cut. I think anytime a course evokes so much passion and emotion we should keep it on the table and in view to study and learn from. By the by 5 hour golf is more study time on any course than I like. lol I do not see a way to speed up play there either. I think that is a painful side effect of this inspiring course

[Jesse Jones]

I think this has been said before in this forum, but TR is a much better play the second time around.
Tiger, I agree with you on #2. It's an impossible tee shot on your first round there.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Jessie nice comment for a pacific northwest GCA man. It is not like you guys are rolling though the sand hills of north carolina every other weekend.

[Sally Livingston]

I too enjoyed TR but would play it smarter (or try to) on a couple of the holes next time I play it, which I hope is soon.. Chris Brown is truly a smart and cordial ambassador for the place!

[Kyle Henderson]

I'm finally getting the chance  to play some of the "great" courses so frequently talked about on this site of late, but Tobacco Road is still my favorite course. I love it for its imperfections. Every disappointing shot is erased from memory by one that successfully negotiates some impossibly intimidating hazard. Every hole is unique to any other I've played and invites me to challenge it at my own peril. I believe I am able understand why golfers would not like it -- probably for many of the same reasons I could never get enough of the place. The Road strikes a different note from any other course I've experienced, and I'm happy to know that it harmonizes with what I love most about golf.

[Sean_A]

I know this course gets a good bit of buzz on here. I played it for the first time this weekend. It was a wild fun and yet head scratching experience. One of my playing partners and poster on here got the nickname Tr during the round from all the career shots he played on a course that lends itself to dramatic and heroic shots. I found it to be a work of art and kinky joy only surpassed by Painswick. However the first hole is a horrible opener(blind hard shots) and the 2nd hole leaves one clueless where to go creating a lot of confussion from the start. There are several dangerous places on the course as well. The ninth green is not designed correctly for the iron plus shots coming to it. I see enough things like this to keep it off the top 100 yet one keeps finding  brillance there which makes one want to find TR in the rankings. I so understand the passion this course generates and hope we all find our way there during their golfing life.

Tiger

Your reaction to a first play of The Road seems fairly typical so far as I can tell.  In any case, the place must be very special if it can elicit such strong emotions, pro and con, from so many people.  Like Matt stated, I believe this is reason enough to celebrate the course. 

I am curious as to why you thought the tee shot at #1 was difficult.  It looks far more difficult than it is and I played it once on quite a chilly morn into a decent breeze with David Madison and it did take a solid strike to get past the mounds - though a layup is always an option.  The fairway on either side of the mounding is fairly wide. 

I do agree that #2 tee shot is a bit awkward and I think it could be made better by reducing the waste area in front of the tee to the left.  It isn't impossible though and no where near as demanding as the 18th.

I agree that #9 approach is severe, but I love that hole.  It is so deceptive with the yardage both from the tee and the approach.  The only thing I don't like about the hole is that balls are easily lost left of the green - perhaps that side should kick in to the green a bit more rather than gobble up balls, but even as it is, I still think its one of the best holes on the course.

Ciao

[Chip Gaskins]

There are far to many forced carries and jail locations even after a ok shot.

i can see where #2 and #18 might be a little too much of a forced carry for high handicappers.

however, i can not think of a location on the course where a golfer ends up in jail after an ok shot.  certainly not off the tee anyway. 

the reason i love TR so much is because is makes the golfer think the course is so much harder than it really is.  when you actually get out in the fairways and look around nearly every landing area is more than ample and you think to yourself "wow, i had a lot more room than i thought"....which is probably the reason the second time you play it most folks like it much better (that is if they didn't like it a lot the first time)

so many fantastic shots out there:
-back left pin on #3
-trying to hit a wedge onto the table top, false front #5
-putting anywhere on #7
-do i go for it or not on #11
-trying to cut the corner on #13
etc..

[Doug Ralston]

Chip I think the course gets lots of love. It also get lots of other feelings. I do not think it is particularly well designed for over 20 handicaps or older players. There are far to many forced carries and jail locations even after a ok shot. Corey I am not sure why it is or is not a top 100. It seems to bring out extreme emotions in many people and moderate ones in few. It is a course to me that has a place in the discusion forum of great golf courses in America even if it does not make the final cut. I think anytime a course evokes so much passion and emotion we should keep it on the table and in view to study and learn from. By the by 5 hour golf is more study time on any course than I like. lol I do not see a way to speed up play there either. I think that is a painful side effect of this inspiring course

Tiger, I am old, and hit the ball short. I play forward tees, and those badly.

Yet I could not help but try to make every absurd challenge there. And for the most part, I failed. Who cares? Just pick up your wedge, go into the waste, and try to pop it back up over that boulder! How could this not be fun? How could one's concern for score not allow them to fully experience what Strantz clearly intended, the excitement of playing daredevil golf?

TR is intentional. He meant to make you feel challenged by shots available. He meant for you to try! Strantz clearly designed Tobacco Road for laughs. Laugh!

Doug

[Craig Disher]

Tiger,
The carries are forced only if you choose to make them so. On #2, for example, our group noticed that there is ample fairway to the right which does not require much of a carry at all. From there, the 2nd shot is longer, perhaps 150-160 yards even after a sub-200 yard drive, and blind, but such is the penalty for taking a safer route off the tee. Even the straight-away carry is only 170 yards although the landing area is slightly uphill. #18 is a different story though; you gotta hit the shot.

Contrary to what many have said, I believe there are run-up options on most of the holes. #9, which didn't find many supporters, does have a sloped ridge on the left approach to the green which helps a running shot feed onto the green. I've always thought that an aerial shot to the green wasn't what Strantz had in mind. A running shot to the left of the first green will swing to the right and if hit with the right speed feed all the way to the extreme right of the green. An aerial approach over the left bunker is a more difficult option given the steep slope off the back of the bunker.

I like Doug Ralston's approach - just enjoy a course that's intended to be fun. I wish there were more like it.

[Chip Gaskins]

Craig-
I totally agree with you on the approach to the first green (which does get some criticism) is best played running it in from the front left (especially if you are going for it in two, hitting a wedge that runs back there would be harder). 

I also see your point on the approach to #9, but as long as the course plays a little wet I doubt the golfer can get his ball to bounce and run onto the green with the severe uphill approach.  Have you seen different?

[Jesse Jones]

Tiger,

I lived on the east coast for quite some time before making it back to the PNW.
One of my best friends lives in Raleigh so I made several trips to the Pinehurst/Sandhills area.
However, a pre-arranged trip to Scottsdale by our family's Minister of Finance, War and Recreation prevented me from catching up with you guys last week.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Jesse One has to respect power. Sean I did not find anything there to hard for me.  I am a low handicapper who still can muster enough power to play these courses from the back. However if one is a 10 plus without a lot of power or 20 plus then I think hitting a 6 iron or less off the tee on the first hole does not come natural. Then one hits a mid iron to long iron again probably blind and then a likely blind mid to short iron to a green that has large areas you cannot hit into. I think that makes for a screwy first hole. It was driver, 3 wood and pitch for me. No big deal except all the shots had blind landing areas. One as they say must trust the swing. lol

[Jason Topp]

Is this a course that makes the case in favor of having accurate yardage information?  If you do not, it would seem like a ton of guesswork.

[Craig Disher]

Is this a course that makes the case in favor of having accurate yardage information?  If you do not, it would seem like a ton of guesswork.

Jason,
In a word, yes. The land forms are unusual for a gc and there are many views that distort distance considerably. The club has a very good yardage book and it's essential for a first-time player

[Eric Smith]

Sans the sand, would Tobacco Road be equally compelling?  Meaning if it weren't built in the sand hills of NC or in a sand quarry someplace else. 

Maybe you couldn't shape it as is without the sand, just curious.

[Chip Gaskins]

ABSOLUTELY i think it would be just as compelling. 

as long as the sand hazard wasn't substituted by a water hazard (or any type of hazard that offers no recovery shot and only a drop/penalty).  rough or heavy rough would work just fine, though no where near as visually intimidating.

i think TR is so thought provoking because the hazards that you have to decide to play over, across, or around (i.e. the risk) are recoverable and not an immediate drop and penalty shot (TPC Sawgrass 18th) so it teases folks of all levels to take that risk being they are not guaranteed a penalty shot....if they don't pull it off....all in search of the reward:

- driving the green on 5 (if over water, no one goes for it, thus boring golf)
- going for it in two on 11 (if over water, no one goes for it, thus boring golf)
- cutting the corner on 13 (you get the point)
- etc

[Chris Pike]

Personally, I love the opening shot at TR.  While it is visually intimidating, I don't think it actually plays that difficult.  I played TR twice (back-to-back rounds).  The first time, I went conservative and laid an iron out between the two mounds (well, very large mounds).  My second time through, I decided to get aggressive.  Took out driver and hit a draw around the left mound.  It actually took me a while to find the ball as it was a good deal further up the fairway than I would have thought.  I can't remember the specific fairway contouring, but I have to believe that once you get past those mounds those fairways run.  Left me with a 4-iron into the green. 

[Eric Smith]

Chip:

That's interesting and insightful. Given your love for the course, I had thought your answer would be no way, you gotta have the sand!  (For the record I haven't been to Tobacco Road yet so I can't speak to it's appeal.)

What I'm getting at is, when you get the chance to build your course someday, and I too have the same dreams, would you build it in the mold of Tobacco Road, given the land that you are working with has some nice features, or go for something more subtle?

I for one hope there are more Tobacco Road type courses built in the future. More outside the box design.  If I could, I would!

[Kyle Henderson]

Personally, I love the opening shot at TR.  While it is visually intimidating, I don't think it actually plays that difficult.  I played TR twice (back-to-back rounds).  The first time, I went conservative and laid an iron out between the two mounds (well, very large mounds).  My second time through, I decided to get aggressive.  Took out driver and hit a draw around the left mound.  It actually took me a while to find the ball as it was a good deal further up the fairway than I would have thought.  I can't remember the specific fairway contouring, but I have to believe that once you get past those mounds those fairways run.  Left me with a 4-iron into the green. 

That is a fun opening shot when one can pull it off. Even if one is a little tense off the 1st tee and leaks their opening shot to the right, there's plenty of fairway past the first mound on that side.

A yardage book is certainly going to make one's first round at The Road much more "scorepossible," and the first hole is a prime example. The scale of that hole makes it nearly impossible for mortals to plot their strategy by merely eyeing things up.

[Bill_McBride]

ABSOLUTELY i think it would be just as compelling. 

as long as the sand hazard wasn't substituted by a water hazard (or any type of hazard that offers no recovery shot and only a drop/penalty).  rough or heavy rough would work just fine, though no where near as visually intimidating.

i think TR is so thought provoking because the hazards that you have to decide to play over, across, or around (i.e. the risk) are recoverable and not an immediate drop and penalty shot (TPC Sawgrass 18th) so it teases folks of all levels to take that risk being they are not guaranteed a penalty shot....if they don't pull it off....all in search of the reward:

- driving the green on 5 (if over water, no one goes for it, thus boring golf)
- going for it in two on 11 (if over water, no one goes for it, thus boring golf)
- cutting the corner on 13 (you get the point)
- etc

You think anyone has ever gone for #11 in two, fallen short, and then gone down in that chasm looking for his ball?    It might as well be water in terms of recoverability!

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