What are some of the most difficult greens to read and what makes them so?

[wsmorrison]

Certain greens are more difficult to read than others.  I'd like to hear from caddies what makes certain greens more difficult to read.  I find subtle interplays of changing slopes more difficult than overt contours.  The longer learning curves of interplays of slope are more suitable for private courses.  What public or resort greens are particularly difficult, not to putt but to read? 

For our architect crew, do you design differently for member play versus resort/public play?

[Jordan Wall]

Wayne,

I find that while subtlely sloped greens can be difficult to gauge, greens with large undulations are equally as hard to read.  For me, Chambers Bay has greens that are very difficult to read.  It has lots of large slopes, and while determining which way the putt breaks is usually easy, finding a really good read of exactly the precise amount of break a putt will have is very hard.  I really do not like reading greens with such slopes as a caddy.

A lot of the reason reading such greens as a caddy are so difficult for me is because the best part of my game is putting - so while I would know where I would play a putt, I also know exactly how hard I'm going to hit the putt.  Often times I'll read a putt just as I would read if I were playing, and a player will either hit the ball way too hard or way too soft, trying to get to cute with the slopes.  Thus, when the ball is hit too soft, it breaks a lot more, and when hit too hard, the putt just doesn't break.  Thus, greens with big undulations are the most difficult for me to read as a caddy.

I personally dont have a problem with the greens at Chambers.  But the way some of my players putt, some of my reads look down right stupid, even though its not my fault.  Its no fun when you tell your player to put it a foot outside the lip and he knocks it 12 feet past the hole, while the putt only breaks four inches...

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne, I got dizzy more than a few times reading the greens at Lulu and I think the particular strain of bentgrass combined with the light of day may have had something to do with it.

Surprisingly, I've never really had trouble reading the greens at Huntingdon Valley and I know more than a few people who find them next to impossible to figure out.

I typically start judging my putt and the green in general from about 100 yards out in the fairway so I tend to have difficulty with greens that are located in areas elevated from the fairway a bit. So long as I can get a decent idea of what actually is "level" as a reference point somewhere near the green I don't have too much difficulty.

[James Bennett]

I find native soil greens (with really good soil drainage) really difficult to read.  You can't look at the surrounds and predict a particular general fall.  It is very easy to have humps and hollows that introduce counter-slopes to the general terrain.

Australian examples are Royal Sydney and St Andrews Beach.  Haven't been to Barnbougle (yet) but I expect they will be of a similar ilk.

I assume Rustic Canyon (LA) was built as native soil greens (and surrounds) as well.

James B

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayno,

Good question.

Reading is an artful combination of determining the line in the context of pace AND break and understanding the relationship between the two

For me, Baltusrol upper always presented a unique challenge.
You know the green breaks, but, the degree of break is often underestimated.  To a degree I think the golfer gets deceived by the immediate surrounds, while ignoring the global surrounds.

Winged Foot West has always been difficult for me to read as well.
It seems like it's impossible to have a putt of 8 feet or more without break, subtle or obvious.

I find it harder to read greens on dull days.
Sunshine makes the task easier.

I had two incredibly spectacular caddies when it came to reading greens.

One was at Inverness and the other at NGLA.

I never saw anyone read greens like these two kids.

They even read chips flawlessly, from determining the optimal point of contact with the green, to the cup.

I believe that they had studied those greens, observed the way they break over their time as caddies, retained that knowledge and understood the significance of pace as it relates to break and the optimum line for "THEIR" golfer, that day.

As to what makes certain greens difficult to read, I'd have to say three things.

1  Where there may be a pronounced feature or contour that either goes
     unnoticed, or where too much significance is attributed to it.

2  Where the immediate surroundings are in conflict with the global
    surroundings

3  Where your vision is impaired ( dull days or bad eyes)

There is a 4th reason, but, it only applies to TEPaul.
And, that's where you read the putt perfectly, but forget your read by the time you get over the ball and are ready to putt.

[wsmorrison]

Excellent response, Pat.  Your reference to to the interaction between immediate and distant surrounds is exactly what I was looking for.  Some architects utilized perception in their designs.  These are some of the most interesting features that I keep an eye out for.  One example of note is where the overall slope of the ground is downhill, even if you break the slope a bit in green construction, so as to keep the green slope away from you, because you've eased the slope slightly, the overall impression is that the green slopes back to front rather than front to back.  When an architect uses the toplines of flanking bunkers to enhance that perception, by having the toplines slope back to front, the appearance is exaggerated.  Examples of this include the 3rd at Rolling Green and the 4th at Cascades.

3rd at Rolling Green (from the My Home Course write up)



4th at Cascades



I want to bring up the topic of grassing.  Uniform strains or even a combination of like strains (A1/A4 for instance) make reading greens much easier than they use to be.  When Merion regrassed their greens, they deliberately chose a number of different strains of bent replicating the mottled look of old style greens.  They sure look good, especially in Fall and early Spring, when the color differentials are at their greatest.  Mottled greens are harder for me to read than uniform greens.

[ward peyronnin]

Wayne,

The condition i recall is a bit of an aberration and not an intentional situation but dormant tan bermuda greens are impossible for me to read and then they are usually running above ten stimpwise; deadly.

[Adam Clayman]

Wayne, You nailed it in your initial post. The interplay of differing slopes. I'll site Spyglass Hill as such a place as well as Prairie Dunes where determining what is uphill and what is down can be misleading. Rustic Canyon was a place that was a pleasure to figure out before one's initial putt. I had the luxury of having the time to take a 360 degree look at each putt, which helped immensely in being able to see the disquised differences.
 Of course green speeds are an integral part of reading any putt. At Pebble Beach, the differences can be in the neighborhood of 10 feet, with a stimpmeter difference of only two. Number nine hole there is the perfect example.

One of the axioms I left the peninsula with is, it's not what you see but what you know.

[cary lichtenstein]

3 courses come to mind:

Red Sky Ranch, Vail, Colo, Greg Norman
Catamont, A private Norman course in Steamboat Colo
I think the name is Arvida in South Calif, a resort with a course in a valley, stayed there 4 days one year and went to the pro and said, "uncle, I give how do you read these greens" and he said to play them 100 times and you will have a pretty good idea.

[Lloyd_Cole]

When Merion regrassed their greens, they deliberately chose a number of different strains of bent replicating the mottled look of old style greens.  They sure look good, especially in Fall and early Spring, when the color differentials are at their greatest.  Mottled greens are harder for me to read than uniform greens.

Jeez Wayne.. no flags AND mottled greens (I assume the lighter areas look similar to sunlight hitting an incline)... you Merion folk!! From an aesthetic POV, too I'd like to add my vote in favour of inconsistency over perfect 'felt' green.

Regarding reading greens I think it's nailed between you and Pat. I'd add that the Broadmoor in Colorado, where the horizon is mountains in all directions, and one seems to have no horizontal reference, was the course I've had most trouble at on the greens. And, given that it is a resort course I'd say that this extreme difficultly and necessity for local knowledge is a weakness, whereas at a private club it would be a strength.

[John Kirk]

Stone Eagle's greens are hard to read.  I'm sure it's the steep prevailing slope, which disturbs your perspective.

As a general comment, I would assume fast greens with very subtle slopes would be difficult to judge, though your misjudgement would result in a small error.

Isn't it great when one of your talented golfer friends misreads a putt by a mile?

My biggest misread last year came at the 6th at Kinloch last fall.  It has a Redan-ish green, and I had a tough putt over the ridge to a back left pin.  The 6th green at Pumpkin Ridge - Witch Hollow is very similar, and I played the putt similarly, taking a very high line, assuming the back of the green would push the ball left, but it just stayed there.  I got the distance about right, but it was about 10 feet right.

[Adam Russell]

The most difficult greens for me to caddie or play is either a middle pin position between two big converging slopes or a pin tucked near a bunker exactly on the trough where a big slope and small slope meet.The former is #14 and the latter is #4 at the Oconee Course at Reynolds. Determining uphill or downhill break for myself or others either in the morning of afternoon be confusing. I use #4 as a measuring stick when I caddie of how I'm reading greens for my player that day. The interesting thing I think is that #4 can be birdied perhaps half the time if you make the tough putt yet #14 requires two (or three) precise shots then an exacting putt. It's the second hardest hole on the course with the hardest putt. The guesswork between the spot of the ball on each and how much one slope will impact the roll vs. the second in reference to accelerating/dying speed proves hardest for me, but more satisfying when I get it right.

[Mike Policano]

Wayne,

I agree with your observations about the third at Rolling Green.  I usually have trouble reading that green even though I know it is a problem for me.   At Ridgewood on 6 East, the slope of the land is at odds with the appearance of the green thereby confounding golfers new to the hole.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Wayne,
The greens at Pine Needles, ca. 1985, were the first greens that gave me fits. There were many subtle breaks which looked like they should play one way yet went another, or moved less or more thna I thought they would. After the fifth round of the third day they lost some of their mystery, but I was far from understanding them fully.

I don't argue that overt contours are somewhat easier to get a handle on than longer slopes, if for no other reason than their visibility, but I do believe bolder contouring is more suited to the  'greens within a green' concept.

As I remember from those six rounds over three days at Pine Needles: it may have been harder to tell which way the ball was going to break, but three putting wasn't too much of a worry. I think it's just the reverse for  boldly contoured greens.     

[James Bennett]

Wayne

are the greens at Merion East and Rolling Green of the 'perched water table' USGA-spec type, or are they native soil?

The most difficult to read USGA-type greens I have played were Alwoodley's.

James B

[Jason Topp]

The greens at my course are difficult to read.  You need to understand the general slope of the green and then determine whether competing slopes offset the general slope completely or not

[wsmorrison]

James,

Merion East's greens are native soil greens.  Until recently with capillary drains and the XGD systems were installed, there were no subsurface drains of any kind in the greens.

Rolling Green has native soil greens.  I think the 16th is a USGA green, though I'm not sure.

[Mike Bowline]

Regarding reading greens I think it's nailed between you and Pat. I'd add that the Broadmoor in Colorado, where the horizon is mountains in all directions, and one seems to have no horizontal reference, was the course I've had most trouble at on the greens. And, given that it is a resort course I'd say that this extreme difficultly and necessity for local knowledge is a weakness, whereas at a private club it would be a strength.

Lloyd, I could not agree more with your description of The Broadmoor and the difficulty of discerning the horizon as a datum. The local knowledge comment is "everything breaks away from the mountains" but you have to see it to believe it. The stimp of 10-11 exascerbates the misreads, making absolute fools of even the best putting visitors.

The stimp, the severe slopes, plus the visiting resort golfers can make for some excruciating waits in the FW whilst waiting for the group ahead to finish!

Nevertheless, the waits are worth it because the course is so much FUN to play.

[James Bennett]

James,

Merion East's greens are native soil greens.  Until recently with capillary drains and the XGD systems were installed, there were no subsurface drains of any kind in the greens.

Rolling Green has native soil greens.  I think the 16th is a USGA green, though I'm not sure.

Wayne

I recall now that Rolling Green's greens are native soil, excluding #16.  thanks.

[Matt OBrien]

Some of the hardest greens to read are at Huntingdon Valley. The valley has so much influence on the putt that many putts break up hill. For someone who is going there for the first time it is very frusterating. Also I find them hard because of the speed of them. In mid summer when they get them moving it is almost impossible to stop a putt.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

At Aronimink there's the "252 Rule", as all puts on greens #12, 13, 14, 15, and 16, which are close to the edge of the property break towards Rte. 252.  The green where this is most confounding, IMHO, is #15 especially if the hole is towards the back right corner.  This part of the green - the corner - actually has a little slope from the green's edge towards the center; however, putts somehow defy that and still break towards 252.  I've seen it happen a kazillion times. 

[wsmorrison]

I think the greens at Merion West are some of the most difficult to read that I have ever encountered.  For those of you that travel to play the East Course, consider playing the West as well, you won't be disappointed at all.  It is a marvelous little course with an excellent set of confounding greens.

[gookin]

I am surprised nobody has mentioned grain. To me slope and speed are hard enough, but when you introduce grain; that is when I go nuts.

[wsmorrison]

Excellent point, David.  I really like having grain in our bent grass greens.  All the grain goes towards our 11th green and I definitely take it into account when I'm putting.  I'm still not sure how to read the 11th though    I don't know exactly how much influence there will be on any given putt, but I always adjust a bit for the grain in our greens. 

[Tim Nugent]

Wayne, you asked if Archies design differently for public/private.  I think the 'local knowledge' factor of private clubs allow one a bit more leaway (sometimes they ask for a Calcutta pin that's all but impossible)  but for the most part, I think most stick with what they like.  Some like big rolls, some like sectioned greens, etc.  Personally, I like to have more contour around the perimeter +/-12' because it has more influence on mishits while the pin is rarely ever placed there.  Also, this lets me tie-in more undulating surrounds better.
As for reading greens, I think that designing and building them building them forces us to be able to read them preety good.  Remember, we have to be able to envision the final surface from a 16" deep (8"-10" before topsoil) cavity.  A couple tricks I learned long ago are to look around the edge and see where the water will drain off the green, you now know the low points (many times there will even be a small drain grate) and if your really unsure, get in a greenside bunker or hollow, so you can look at the surface from eye level.  This really helps if the greens are pretty flat and/or have alot of small bumps in them.
PS. grain really messes with me, that's why I like the newer strains of bent.