What are some of the most difficult greens to read and what makes them so?

[Doug Wright]

Wayne,

I'd concur with the comments above about The Broadmoor, which always comes to mind first when this question is asked on here. The influence of the mountain slope is just not something you can see in the green contours. Similar challenges exist at a number of Colorado foothills/mountain courses like the Air Force Academy, Bear Dance, Hiwan and Rolling Hills.

I also find bermuda greens very tough to read because of the grain, which seems variable from green to green. I'm always playing those greens on a trip so I never get used to them.

[Sean_A]

Grain gets me too, but I have had very little experience with it in any true sense of the word. 

The one type of green which really gives me fits are those that look flat and are built into hills - surrounding terrain can be a killer for putting.  I know it will break, but I can never tell how much.  What compounds the problem is speed.  Putting into, down or sideways on a green like this exaggerates any tendency.  Most other greens can be read with a few goes even if you are confounded the first time - its a matter of experience.  With the green I describe experience helps to avoid the 3 putt, but not so much for making a putt especially the way conditions (combination of weather & low maintenance regimes) change so often in England.   

Ciao

[Doug Siebert]

Sean,

What you discuss is the same thing others are bringing up with the Broadmoor, Aronomink, etc.  People love to talk about putts "breaking uphill" but there's no such thing.  I had a friend who so persistently claimed some putt or another was defying gravity that I bought something called a BreakMaster to keep in my bag.  Its a little device you can set on a surface and it will tell you the direction and amount of slope on that surface.

The thing cost me $60, so I offered him a $100 bet that I could prove his putt didn't break uphill a few times and he wouldn't do it, he finally took me up on it and it was something like 0.5% grade in my favor so the device was paid for.  He still claims his putts are breaking uphill on him, but he gives me dirty looks if I suggest verifying his claim

I still keep it in my bag for the hell of it, sometimes I'll bring it out to see exactly how much slope there is in certain places.  I suppose it could work as a stimpmeter of sorts, if you have a green that's fast/sloped enough to have areas where once you get the ball rolling it won't stop, you can see how much slope that spot has.  The smaller the slope, the faster the green must be to not allow the ball to stop!

And I do still bring it out occasionally if someone wants to suggest a putt is breaking uphill.  Haven't seen a putt that defies gravity yet

[Ray Tennenbaum]

And I do still bring it out occasionally if someone wants to suggest a putt is breaking uphill.  Haven't seen a putt that defies gravity yet

I've seen it on Bermuda greens when the ball has almost rolled out and the grain grabs it. 

[JSlonis]

Doug,

Good post.  I was going to mention the same thing when I read the post above.  I hear guys say that all the time about the greens at Huntingdon Valley...it's funny.  Apparently, the laws of physics cease to exist on that golf course.  With the huge slope of the entire valley and the internal slope of the greens, sometimes it is quite difficult there to get the right read.  You really have to pay attention to the surroundings.  Another thing that HVCC has that drives guys crazy is GRAIN in the Bent Greens.  I think it's pretty cool, but I know a fair amount of guys that don't like it.  Contrary to nearly every other course, the club has reintroduced grain over the past several years and maintain the greens to encourage it.  It's something you definitely have to pay attention to as well.

The most recent greens that I've found difficult to read are the greens at Coore & Crenshaw's Hidden Creek.  They are big with a good mix of bold and subtle contours.  I consider myself to be a pretty decent reader of greens, but I've misread more putts there than I can remember.  On most courses, I'll at least get the general direction of break correct, but there I've seen more putts breaking in the opposite direction of what I thought.  I don't know what it is, but they're tricky.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Pine Needles have some of the toughest greens to read around. You have to be so precise with your line--if a putt is 2 balls on the right, and you hit it 3 balls, it may break 6 inches to the right.

Carnegie Abbey has the hardest greens to read, putt, play, chip etc. around.

Carnegie Abbey sits on a hill that slopes down to the Narraganssett Bay. Theres alot of gravity going on and a ton of grain in the greens.

If your putt is going towards the water it will be faster, and visa versa. EVERYTHING breaks towards the bay, I mean everything. There are some really bizare putts. It is one of those courses where a caddie who knows the greens can really get your 3-6 strokes.

[Ray Tennenbaum]

designing great greens is some kind of black magic.  to me, bewitching putting surfaces are what help make a great course so, or a mediocre one so-so. so many times I've found myself wondering how an architect's has done it -- and I consider myself for the most part a pretty good reader of putts.  after all, there's only three dimensions.

[Kalen Braley]

Theres a well documented phenomem of gravity or magnetic hills.  Its essentially an optical illusion where water or anything loose appears to roll uphill.

I've noticed these types of putts the most on courses that are built into the side of a mountain/hill and can really make one look foolish.  Here in Utah, I get these puts all the time as many courses are built into the benches of the surrounding Wasatch mountain range.

More info:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_hill

[Mike Hendren]

Hands down - Lookout Mountain CC.  Good movement in the land coupled with built-up putting surfaces.

That said, I spent 15 minutes putting on the 14th green at Beverly CC and didn't make a single putt.  Nice sidehill cant.

Mike

[Ray Tennenbaum]

Theres a well documented phenomem of gravity or magnetic hills.  Its essentially an optical illusion where water or anything loose appears to roll uphill.

I've noticed these types of putts the most on courses that are built into the side of a mountain/hill and can really make one look foolish.  Here in Utah, I get these puts all the time as many courses are built into the benches of the surrounding Wasatch mountain range.

More info:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_hill

nice.  I will print it out to pull out when people complain about my plumb-bobbing.

[Ray Tennenbaum]

somewhat far afield from the original topic but:

I think putts breaking uphill is a real phenomenon in this case -- though once again, only on Bermuda.  to borrow a motoring image: if a significant "contact patch" under the golf ball is running through a patch of grass that's so severely grained to affect its rotational speed unevenly, is it not possible that as the ball's momentum runs out, there is in effect a drag on one side of the patch -- so that as the ball slows to a halt, the tendency to spin away from the grain-induced drag would allow the ball to go uphill?  that's what I'm talking about -- again, only in the very last few inches of the putt.