News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Mike_Young

  • Total Karma: 1
Did the ODG's have a system for determining bunker depth? 
I have always had my own ideas  for determining what I thought should be the depth of a greenside bunker.  For example a bunker looking down on a green more than 7 or 8 percent slope falling away may only need a foot of depth and a bottom sloping toward the green whereas a bunker that requires a shot into a "mitt" on the green may be 7 or 8 feet deep with a flat bottom....
Yet when I see some of the old plans of some of the ODG stuff they will have bunkers labeled as 3 ft deep at one point and 4 ft at another and then a redo comes along and in a seance someone determines these bunkers were , say eight feet deep.....
So....is there anyone that thinks some of the ODG stuff really thought much about bunker depth or did it just happen?
At the end of the day..most of mine just happens...... ;) ;)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

John Moore II

I would say that for someone like Fazio or maybe Nicklaus, the depth is very planned. However, for Doak and other naturalists I would say that it is not planned, just happens however the land lets it happen (at least at courses like Pac Dunes and Sand Hills) I would think that the more unnatural a course designer is, the more he/she plans out every detail of the course. Or at least has an associate plan out to that detail.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 4

Mr. Moore - you say that like its a bad thing, but I see no reason not to do a little pre-planning and give a little thought to things like bunker depth. Its what designers do!

Mike - a hot topic for me. Here is a Cybergolf piece, gently edited from its orignal version:


There is no one answer - either among different golf course architects, or even for one golf course architect or even one golf course. When building bunkers, I consider both design philosophy and practical considerations.
 
In the perfect golf course architectural world, I think there would be some correlation between bunker depth and shot difficulty.

For fw bunkers, I generally make them deeper and steeper on shorter holes, trying to get the up slope is a bit less than the launch angle and total depth (at least closer to the fw) about deep enough to offer a 2 to 1 probable recovery success ratio with the expected club range (i.e., short, mid and long irons).

For greens, some contend that short approach shots suggest more and deeper bunkers to "proportionally punish" missed shots, while a longer approach shot might feature fewer and shallower bunkers, since a miss with a long iron is more likely.  But, most golfers prefer greenside bunkers shallow enough to see the pin. (i.e., about 4-5 feet deep) feeling it emphasizes skill over luck, but deep enough to stop putting recoveries.

Moderate-depth bunkers are also easier for average golfers to get their balls out of and for Seniors to get themselves out of! Superintendents can maintain them better.  Lastly, moderate bunkers probably encourage bold play more than severe hazards. Feathering a 6-iron fade to a tucked pin is technically (if not psychologically) the same challenge whether that bunker is 2 or 20 feet deep.

How often do I need to provide a virtually unplayable recovery shot for golfers who try and fail a shot, thereby discouraging them from trying it again? Well, sometimes.  I prefer varying bunker depth, so that over time, golfers learn that some are to be avoided, while others should be challenged because the penalty isn't great.

How consciously do I strive for that variety? On flat sites, it may be necessary to think about varying bunker depths, but letting the "bunkers fall where they may" on a rolling site seems to provide all the natural variety necessary. As always, bunkers look and feel best if built according to the land, including the "natural" depth of a bunker. 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Cirba

Mike,

There is no question that some of the ODG's considered bunker depth, shape, look, internal contour, and consistency, not just in greenside bunkers, but also fairway bunkering.

This goes way, way, way back and even guys like Hugh Wilson wrote about it and others like William Flynn were very precise in their instructions and writings.

While everything they did wasn't absolute genius, it also seems pretty clear that they were a hell of a lot more sophisticated than many would like to believe.

In looking at a ton of old drawings and other "build instructions" in recent years, I'm actually pretty amazed at how much some of these guys thought about this stuff.

Bradley Anderson

  • Total Karma: 0
Jeff,

I have never seen an ODG set of drawings or prints that are as detailed as modern prints are with all four angles.

This may be an odd question, but I wonder if the bunker depth served also as a guide in determining embankment slope all around the greens? In other words, where you see bunker depth listed on these old drawings, what you are seeing is more than just a guide for the severity or relative ease of the bunker, but also a number that will help to shape the surrounds and perhaps even to some degree the internal slopes?


Scott Witter

Mike:

I like this question...though I may not be as cynical as you are about the root of the question. ;)

I have seen a fair amount of old drawings by the ODG's and while I think similarly as M. Cirba that they did consider this a fair amount, I was surprised to see very similar depths stated from hole to hole.  On two particular sets of Ross plans, Ross clearly stated in his own field notes on the green plans the depths he wanted.  Just before I wrote this post, I checked the plans.  On boths courses, with all types of approach shots being used with soil and drainage conditions that would have allowed him the freedom to make the bunkers as deep or shallow as he wanted, he only varied 5 times in depth.  On one course, built on all sand, using very natural green sites, he stated the bunkers to be 4'-6" deep on 12 of 18 holes.  These are greenside bunkers I am speaking of.  On the other holes he wanted them at 4' deep.  The other course is VERY similar.

So what does this tell us, well, these are only two examples and not sufficient documentation IMO to draw a conclusion from, but both of these courses are two of Ross's more well known.  I suspect, however, that you believe they didn't think about it much and this supports your cynicism of the ODG's, which is certainly valid in some cases.  Furthermore, when you consider that Ross didn't spend much if any time on site with much of his work, how much thought could he have really given?  To me, the ODG's should have been the pioneers to exclusively make field decisions on all such important matters, but I highly doubt this was the actual case, even with many of the other ODG's.

For me, I do think about this condition and as with many architects there are several factors which lead up to the final depth achieved.  Like Jeff B. indicates, it depends on the type of site, its character, the visual attributes, drainage, the penalty desired or required, the length and challenge of approach shot, the putting surface and its design plays a big role in greenside bunker depths.  There will be locations within each bunker that are clearly more trouble from the combination of depth and edge conditions and what the slope of the PS is near that spot.

There is no question that field conditions, for me at least, do influence the final depth and this is often based on the entire green site character with all the previous parameters taken into thought.  How far the bunker sits from the PS, its design style (Flash, steep face, grass face, flat bottom, etc.)...surface area and depth for me become a balance of proportion desired that fit the setting.  I know this sounds like a lot of analysis to some, but these are just flowing thoughts that a designer always has and weighs on a constant basis when making decisions about a feature.  Truth be told, the final decision is always on site and what simply works the best for what I feel are the most important playing considerations weighed against the physical conditions/restrictions, if any.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 4
Bradley,

I agree with you and Mike that plans in the old days just weren't as detailed as some here seem to give them credit for.  I haven't studied them THAT closely for a few years now (went to Tufts library during 99 US Open at PH) but the bunkers seemed to be generally drawn about the same distance from the green, whether they said to build them 3 or 5 foot deep.  As a result of that (and natual topo variations, deeper bunkers would naturally get steeper slopes, or would have to be built further from the green in the field.  So, I think that their bunkers sort of naturally varied in steepness, but that's a very general statement.

As to putting surface contours, I have seen plenty of round, upside down bowl greens (even on great courses like Oakmont) where the green contours are virtually independent of the slopes coming out of the bunkers. I think there is less of a correlation.

Again, I think its a great question and coincidentally, we spent Friday afternoon playing around with design ideas, as we often do.  Yesterday, we worked did some 3D drawings by computer to see which and what of our "typical" bunker grading actually works the way we think it does.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Philippe Binette

  • Total Karma: 0
Depends on your soil,

but a lot of time bunker depth is determine by your water exit point in a ditch or to another pipe... on a flat clay site, you might not be able to go deeper than a foot down so you have to built up for a perception of depth...

Even the guys who do plans plan their bunker depth,
on site we try to vary the depth and think about it but we're not OK this one should be 4 feet 8 inches deep and this 3 feet, we go by feel (and you always have to remember that once the sand is in, the bunker won't look and be as deep)....

remember that the best bunkers break the ''rules''

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 4
Philippe,

Having worked in clay soils most of my life I tend to think the same way. In fact, even in sandy soils, most bunkers get tile these days.

When designing a green plan, I have probably already roughed out the drainage scheme – either pipe, ditch, pond, whatever, although draining into nearby creeks is getting rarer these days due to environmental regulations.

After plotting the basic green and bunker locations and sizes (which will be modified as the plan goes on) I start figuring the drain pipe outlet elevation and its distance from the lowest bunker, green tile outlets (usually the front of the green) and even any bunkers or grass bunkers on the far side of the green from the drain outlet.

To keep pipes “self cleansing” and avoid clogging, I have minimum grades I use for the typical 4” (1%), 6” (0.67%) and 8” (0.5%).  If using 8” outlet pipe and with the bunker 200 feet from the outlet, the pipe flow line must be 1 foot above the outlet.  Add in another 8” for perforated tile and gravel base in the bunker, and 6” for sand and a fudge factor and I would set the minimum bunker base elevation at about 2 ft. above the drain outlet.

I also consider the “natural” floor elevation, which is what it would be if I cut it into the soil up to a foot and the “maximum” it might be, although it usually looks unnatural to fill a bunker base more than a little bit. Sometimes, we must, though.

Then, I consider the minimum and natural green front elevations.  A lot of things go into the green elevation like visibility from the fairway, fitting to trees and natural grades, mowable slopes, cut and fill balance or ability to import fill, ADA ramps and cart path access, etc. 

On rolling ground, most factors favor setting a base green and bunker elevation pretty near their center point elevations.  The result is a bunker about as deep as the differences between those two naturally are. But, I look at the hole design, too.  On a long par with a “natural bunker depth” of ten feet, is that too much penalty considering the rest of the hole?  Or is it in a place in the round where it’s a good change of pace and gut check, and does it contrast nicely with the other long par 4’s which might feature harder tee shots, or easier green hazards, etc.

However, on flat ground, I may be faced with a situation where the bunker is 3 feet above the outlet, and the natural green front is only 4’ above it. Then, I need to decide if I want a one foot deep bunker, another hazard like chocolate drop mounds, or to fill the green, still within the parameters above.  If there is a fill source nearby I will probably fill the green to get at least 3-4 feet of bunker depth, all other factors being equal, but costs usually keep me from filling the green 8-9’, even if it’s a short approach that might benefit from a stout bunker.  I go through the same process of comparing it to other short holes, the difficulty of tee shot, whether I can make green contours or other things the key feature of the approach, etc.

It’s a circular process to say the least. And the land always has some input to the process, but at some point, I have to say, “Hmmmm, what exactly do I want this shot to play like?”  And that’s when some rudimentary math comes in to play simultaneously with both art and intuition.

I agree its weird to obsess over some theoretical bunker depth to feet and inches.  Given the typical upslope and natural warp of the greens and bunkers, some parts of the bunker will be relatively deeper than others, so all I try to do is get a general idea of shallow, moderate, or deep bunker, considering topo and play.  Also, in general, the more bunkers there are around the green, the shallower I generally make them.  If there is one bunker, I feel it can be deeper, so there are more places to avoid them. Even with multiple bunkers, I may make one, or one side the "master bunker", i.e. the deep one the astute player knows he needs to avoid.

Mike also makes an interesting point about slope in the bunkers.  Behind and above greens my tendency is to slope bunkers up for vision, and up more quickly to keep the bunkers relatively small and close to the green. Some players complain about the downhill lie to a downhill green - especially if aiming at a pond on the other side, which sometimes is the case.  That - and the length of tile required to drain bunkers on the high side - often becomes a practical reason to follow Ross and limit backing bunkers. (If he did. And, if he did, I guess its for the same reason)

Other complaints on lateral bunkers include flash slopes near the green, where a shot missing by five feet might bury, and one missing by ten finds the comfortable flat lie in the bottom of the bunker.  Personally, I love the look of flash bunkers, and hate to see just "slivers" of sand. I find sloping my bunker bases up 5-8% makes even a "flat" bunker visible.

The only actual writings I recall about any of the ODG on bunker depth, slope, etc. was Ross writing that the inside of a fw bunker ought to be shallower than the outside, to create proportional penalty.  I believe he also liked a continuous slope away from the bunker edges to assist in collecting balls near the middle rather than in an unplayable lie.  Other than that, I don't think they gave it as much thought as some would think.

Frankly, I am just starting to at this point in my career.  For a long time, bunkers just came out where they came out.  Now, my bunker depths still often "just happen" but I do like to think about them before they wander off on their own!

« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 12:47:33 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jim_Kennedy

  • Total Karma: 1
Scott,
You said  ....."Furthermore, when you consider that Ross didn't spend much if any time on site with much of his work, how much thought could he have really given?"

Wouldn't he have had to give the depth of his bunkers more thought, especially if he knew he wasn't going to be on site that often, or at all, and wanted to ensure that whoever was building the course got it as close as possible on their own?
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Greg Krueger

  • Total Karma: 0
Jeff B.-That was awesome, thank you!

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 4
Scott,
You said  ....."Furthermore, when you consider that Ross didn't spend much if any time on site with much of his work, how much thought could he have really given?"

Wouldn't he have had to give the depth of his bunkers more thought, especially if he knew he wasn't going to be on site that often, or at all, and wanted to ensure that whoever was building the course got it as close as possible on their own?

Jim,

Given that Ross apparently had two levels of service - plans only and plans plus field visits - presumably at different fee levels, how much do you really think he cared about bunker depth for those clients who opted to pay the lesser fee and get plans only?  I think the mindset for both parties was that it really didn't matter that much under the circumstances of a reduced contract.

In fact, I might be tempted to specifically make bunkers goofy depths. And when I got the telegram asking if that could possibly be correct, I would reply "Just the way I wanted it."  I think I recall that Ross got some wild bunkers for the Canadian Pacific Railways when his plans of "3" feet deep" were interpreted as 3 yards deep by the surveyors.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 01:32:12 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Scott Witter

Jim:

Jeff B. notes the level of service, but I don't agree with him completely ;) that this was purely based on his fees.  Sure, it might have influenced his thoughts at first, but with his schedule of designing and building so many courses and travel challenges, I think it falls more in line with these influences as opposed to fees.  This IMO, however, and Jeff is certainly entitled to it as well ;D

Nevertheless, this does become a point of debate when restoring and others on a project team...the super, and club officials often want to believe otherwise and they really have a hard time accepting the fact that Ross could be quite general at times even when it came to specific features and important ones such as greenside bunkers.  Honestly, I have to believe he cared more, but was simply unable to make distinction since he wasn't at the site.  I also believe, but again IMO,  that since he had a lot of trust and faith in his site supers/foremans, that they could make field adjustments if they felt it worked with his vision for the hole and the site conditions.  I say this only because I have found original sand in Ross bunkers that varied greatly in depth from what was noted on the plans yet he was not at the site during construction.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Total Karma: 1
Jeff,
He must have given it some thought, as you said.....  "I think I recall that Ross got some wild bunkers for the Canadian Pacific Railways when his plans of "3" feet deep" were interpreted as 3 yards deep by the surveyors ....but I won't argue that there may have been less care to make sure it was as planned.

Scott,
I wasn't referring to 'as built' as much as I was referring to 'as planned' in my first post. I thought then that his 'mailed' plans would have had to be fairly well fleshed out if he wasn't going to be there.   
   
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Scott Witter

Jim:

I follow you, and yes I would tend to agree, but from what I have seen this doesn't seem to be the case.  In fact, in the many Ross 'restorations and non-restored Ross courses I have studied, it appears that not much thought, or shall I say variety was given to the depth of the bunkers.  Everyone seems to be much more concerned 'while getting them right' with the grass slopes, overall shape/character and placement.  While those are clearly essential, I think the depth, which IMO can really vary the look and playability is often overlooked even today.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 4
Would it be possible to come up with a shallow bunker after some "deep thought?" :)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

  • Total Karma: 1
Scott,
As you mention Ross had some details stating bunker depth of 4'6" and another at say 3'.  IMHO I think all he was saying is build one bunker about 3 ft deep and make the other one about 18 inches deeper....I really don't think he was trying to be as accurate as describing bunker depth in inches would indicate.
As Jeff says....in some conditions drain lines have as much to do with bunker depth as anything. 

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 4
For that matter, a really forward thinking architect would make his bunkers about two feet shallower than he really wanted, knowing that in time, golfers would blast enough sand up on the banks to raise the lip that much.

Some other things that affect bunker depth include hitting rock or water table at a much shallower depth than I anticipated :-\  Of course, there is always the contractor who tells you he has dug it quite enough for the day, thank you..... >:(
« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 03:36:39 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Scott Witter

Mike:

I am not so sure about your latest reference, sounds a bit too casual IMO.  On the green plans I have copies of, he says, "Bunkers No 2-3- 4 to be no less than 4'-6" deep"  Sometimes he said, "No's 1- 2 Bunkers deep & irregular in outline, keep face low, finish at 4'-6" deep" and on a particularly interesting mid length par-3 he writes, "No's - 1-2-3-4-depressed mainly & finished 4'-6" deep.  No part of the face of No-2-3-4 to be above the level of the green"

Clearly he was decisive in what he intended, but when not on site during construction, how much is one to interpret such notes?  The reference to inches I think is futile, except to imply--and maybe that's what you mean, that the depths should vary, at least that is what I take away from it.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 4
Scott,

Sounds to me like Ross generally liked bunkers shallow enough to see out of - since eye level is about 4.5 feet for most men - no matter what the length of the approach shot. I think I recall him writing that the par 3 bunkers could be a little deeper, since all golfers started on a tee and it was a little easier shot.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

  • Total Karma: 1
Scott,
Thats how I would describe Ross details....just "casual".....how could you be anything else with 400 courses, no planes, email or computers.....half the farmers building his courses did not even know what a bunker was....yes I agree that the "inches" were there only to describe sublte differences in depth. ;D ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Patrick_Mucci

Mike Young,

Without having read any responses, my gut feeling is that the ODG's viewed bunkers in a more penal context.

They didn't have to worry about juniors, senior or women to any great extent.

In addition, they weren't that far removed from golf in Scotland, and I believe golf in Scotland called for more demanding features/hazards.

What's interesting about this is that it wasn't until approximately 1933 when Sarazen invented the Sand Wedge.

When you consider that Karsten Solheim popularized the Lob Wedge, making it easier to extract oneself from bunkers, you would think that the current/modern trend would be for deeper bunkers.

However, site selection might preclude that goal.

Without soil conditions that promote great drainage, deep bunkers aren't feasible.

AND, the demand for fairness, coupled with the mandate that a golf course accomodate every level of golfer, inherently precludes deep, penal bunkers.

I love them because the accentuate the strategic relationship of the features and heighten the challenge.

Scott Witter

Mike:

Okay, got ya now, thanks.  Certainly with so many projects, it does seem impractical to think he thought in great detail about every feature on every site.  Some days, just picking which pencil to use gets me all confused, crap, then if it isn't sharpened, I am at a total loss :D

Jeff:

I am not sure, but your hypothesis is worth further study IMO.  Re: par-3's, not sure there either.  On the courses I mention there is no correlation for the depth being deeper and again, without more comparison to many more of his courses I really couldn't say.

Pat:

Do you really believe the ODG"s directed the design of bunkers in a penal manner?  I am not sure, but curious to your opinion anyway.  I agree with you that their influence from overseas was more penal in nature and the popular use of cross-bunkers in fairways, at green sites and their orientation perpendicular to the line of play is an indication of this, but I am not convinced that it is based on penal design as much as it might have been on the fundamental premise that hazards should be in your way and golfer's must deal with them.  That, in an unto itself could have been seen as penal enough when introduced in America IMO.

 

Patrick_Mucci


Pat:

Do you really believe the ODG"s directed the design of bunkers in a penal manner? 

Yes.
Remember, the Sand Wedge and the Lob Wedge didnt' exist, so you have to examine bunker design in the context of play in that era.

What may not seem penal to you today was certainly penal to golfers not armed with Sand and Lob wedges in those days.
[/color]

I am not sure, but curious to your opinion anyway. 

I agree with you that their influence from overseas was more penal in nature and the popular use of cross-bunkers in fairways, at green sites and their orientation perpendicular to the line of play is an indication of this, but I am not convinced that it is based on penal design as much as it might have been on the fundamental premise that hazards should be in your way and golfer's must deal with them. 

I think you've corrupted my response by implying that greenside bunkers were based on "penal design".   That's not what I said, I said that the ODG's viewed bunkers in a more penal context,.... versus how bunkers are viewed today.

I think you'd agree that a 4 foot deep bunker presents a far greater hazard to a golfer unequiped with Sand and Lob Wedges.   Thus, its strategic significance is heightened, and the penalty for not avoiding it is greater.

I think you'll also agree that putting out of bunkers wasn't a shot of choice, even with golfers not possessing Sand and Lob wedges.

When you couple that with their historic and architectural connection with the UK, the equipment and skill of the golfer in that era, and the condition of bunkers, vis a vis maintainance practices, I believe that their bunkers were more penal than those today, and thus, more strategic.
[/color]

That, in an unto itself could have been seen as penal enough when introduced in America IMO.

I'm not sure that I agree with that because there was nothing else to compare them to.  That WAS what bunkers were.  There wasn't 80-110 years of evolution and a trend toward fairness.

You'll also note, in pictures from Baltusrol, GCGC and other clubs, the use of sleepers, meant to create deep, sharp faced bunkers, PENAL bunkers.

Almost universally, those bunkers have been considerably softened as the trend away from penal bunkers emerged.  It's my belief that that trend was a product of the diversity of the golfers in expanding memberships
[/color]


Scott Witter

Pat:

Once again, you more than I bargined for ;)

I am fully aware of the sand wedge and the profound change it brought about and yes, recovery from bunkers back then without the wedge was clearly more challenging than it is today.

IMO, I didn't corrupt your response, at least not intentionally anyway, but merely tried, to no avail once again :-\ to absorb your thoughts in the right context and develop my response in a reflective light I felt was in line...silly me :D

"When you couple that with their historic and architectural connection with the UK, the equipment and skill of the golfer in that era, and the condition of bunkers, vis a vis maintainance practices, I believe that their bunkers were more penal than those today"

I agree with this statement and yes, the bunkers were what they were, which as you so accurately point out were PENAL in nature especially when combined with all the other features such as sleepers. steep mounds, etc.

Thanks Pat