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JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How much affect does Golfclubatlas.com have on the rankings?
« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2008, 03:47:41 PM »
I would like to remove one of the two Greyhawk courses (forgot which one I liked least) and add in Columbine CC.

tlavin

Re: How much affect does Golfclubatlas.com have on the rankings?
« Reply #51 on: March 17, 2008, 03:49:25 PM »
Everyone sure does love voting on courses where they are members.  Who can blame em?

Sure, as long as you're only listing the best you've played...I'm not suggesting for a minute that I am ranking Beverly, Olympia or Dunes Club as Top 30 golf courses in the country, but they're all in my Top 30.  And I'm betting that Victoria National would easily get into the list when I get that done...

The ethics question itself is simple to answer: If somebody is a rater and they are a member of a club, they should not submit a rating.

John Kavanaugh

Re: How much affect does Golfclubatlas.com have on the rankings?
« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2008, 03:50:57 PM »
I would like to remove one of the two Greyhawk courses (forgot which one I liked least) and add in Columbine CC.

Ryan,

I get the impression you have forgotten a course in Alabama or two.

John Kavanaugh

Re: How much affect does Golfclubatlas.com have on the rankings?
« Reply #53 on: March 17, 2008, 03:55:41 PM »
Everyone sure does love voting on courses where they are members.  Who can blame em?

Sure, as long as you're only listing the best you've played...I'm not suggesting for a minute that I am ranking Beverly, Olympia or Dunes Club as Top 30 golf courses in the country, but they're all in my Top 30.  And I'm betting that Victoria National would easily get into the list when I get that done...

The ethics question itself is simple to answer: If somebody is a rater and they are a member of a club, they should not submit a rating.

The great unethical thing about my list is that I payed to play less than half of the courses listed.   Damn...I forgot Canyata.  This is such dirty business.

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How much affect does Golfclubatlas.com have on the rankings?
« Reply #54 on: March 17, 2008, 04:01:50 PM »
I would like to remove one of the two Greyhawk courses (forgot which one I liked least) and add in Columbine CC.

Ryan,

I get the impression you have forgotten a course in Alabama or two.

I have not made it down there yet.  I can repost my top 25 on Sunday if you would like.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How much affect does Golfclubatlas.com have on the rankings?
« Reply #55 on: March 17, 2008, 04:02:42 PM »
JK

Torrey Pines ahead of Bandon Trails, Pasatiempo, and Pacific Dunes???

Thats enough for me...no need to go any further!!  I don't think you have to worry about getting a phone call anytime soon from any of those magazines to add you as a rater!!   ;D  ;)

tlavin

Re: How much affect does Golfclubatlas.com have on the rankings?
« Reply #56 on: March 17, 2008, 04:04:17 PM »
Everyone sure does love voting on courses where they are members.  Who can blame em?

Sure, as long as you're only listing the best you've played...I'm not suggesting for a minute that I am ranking Beverly, Olympia or Dunes Club as Top 30 golf courses in the country, but they're all in my Top 30.  And I'm betting that Victoria National would easily get into the list when I get that done...

The ethics question itself is simple to answer: If somebody is a rater and they are a member of a club, they should not submit a rating.

The great unethical thing about my list is that I payed to play less than half of the courses listed.   Damn...I forgot Canyata.  This is such dirty business.

Filthy.

I'm playing in Alabama with Pottsie so I might have to kick out Pumpkin Ridge or Lake Nona to make room for Shoal Creek next week.

John Kavanaugh

Re: How much affect does Golfclubatlas.com have on the rankings?
« Reply #57 on: March 17, 2008, 04:09:42 PM »
JK

Torrey Pines ahead of Bandon Trails, Pasatiempo, and Pacific Dunes???

Thats enough for me...no need to go any further!!  I don't think you have to worry about getting a phone call anytime soon from any of those magazines to add you as a rater!!   ;D  ;)

Kalen,

It means a ton to me personally that I get to watch a US Open played where I just walked up to the counter, payed and played.  Have you played there or are you letting Golf Club Atlas affect your rankings?  What exactly do you believe the three courses you mention have over Torrey Pines?

I have two great moral paradoxes that haunt me.  One...A child or close friend asks me to pay for an abortion.  Two..Brad Klein asks me to be a Golfweek rater.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2008, 04:16:18 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How much affect does Golfclubatlas.com have on the rankings?
« Reply #58 on: March 17, 2008, 04:17:31 PM »
John,

Played Pacific Dunes and have seen all the rest of them in person.  Have also seen plenty of Torrey Pines on the tube as well.  So I would say based on your ability to evaluate ANGC, we are in the same boat.

As for the whole "US Open site", or " pros have played here" appeal to a course, this means zero to me with 2 possible exceptions being ANGC and TOC.

If you are ready to engage in a hole-by-hole post exchange on why they are better than Torrey Pines, by all means I'm game.  But seeing how you posted your list first, why don't you state why TP is better than each of those 3. Or will this cramp your St. Pattys day activities??

John Kavanaugh

Re: How much affect does Golfclubatlas.com have on the rankings?
« Reply #59 on: March 17, 2008, 04:24:11 PM »
John,

Played Pacific Dunes and have seen all the rest of them in person.  Have also seen plenty of Torrey Pines on the tube as well.  So I would say based on your ability to evaluate ANGC, we are in the same boat.

As for the whole "US Open site", or " pros have played here" appeal to a course, this means zero to me with 2 possible exceptions being ANGC and TOC.

If you are ready to engage in a hole-by-hole post exchange on why they are better than Torrey Pines, by all means I'm game.  But seeing how you posted your list first, why don't you state why TP is better than each of those 3. Or will this cramp your St. Pattys day activities??

Torrey Pines is cleary better than Pacific Dunes because of the back nine.  Without wind Pacific Dunes is far too easy to be anything but a beautiful resort experience.  Torrey Pines stretch of 11, 12, 13 and 14 blows away anything at Pacific from a golfing perspective.  Pacific does not have one decent long par 3.  It is toot and hoot golf.

John Kavanaugh

Re: How much affect does Golfclubatlas.com have on the rankings?
« Reply #60 on: March 17, 2008, 04:29:01 PM »
What really pisses me off about Pacific is that with all the talk about nature and random bounces you approach 4 greens on the back nine by hitting your ball off of a tee.  Can you imagine if every golf course had a local rule that allowed you to place your ball on a tee for four approaches on the back nine.  It may be fun but it is not competition or even golf in the purist sense.  Oh yea,  I hope you understand the difference between US Open site and where the pros play.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2008, 04:36:24 PM by John Kavanaugh »

John Kavanaugh

Re: How much affect does Golfclubatlas.com have on the rankings?
« Reply #61 on: March 17, 2008, 04:44:35 PM »
I will admit that I thought about leaving Pacific Dunes off my list but I really dig the views and shooting low scores.  You also just can't beat the conditioning.  It would not have been honest to exclude the course just to be controversial.  I think 16th is pretty high.  I have played the course three times now and been in one bunker so I guess I might not have experienced the course fully yet.  ftwc..It was the fairway bunker left on number 4 from which I made par.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How much affect does Golfclubatlas.com have on the rankings?
« Reply #62 on: March 17, 2008, 04:46:54 PM »
Thats a decent start. I will admit there are some interesting holes at TP south, but lets see how TP stacks up against PD in a head to head match.

1st)  PD 1 up.  TP south 1st hole is an average muni-esque yawner.
2nd) PD 2 up.  Ditto the 2nd hole for TP.  PD 2 has some much going on here in terms of strategy and otherwise, I could write a whole page on it.
3rd)  PD 3 up.  TP at least starts to get interesting here but can't compete with the center fairway bunkering and amazing green complex at PD's 3rd.
4th)  Half.  Both very fine holes with good views and strategy.
5th)  Half again.  But only out of pity.  The 5th green at PD is full of options and otherwise, but TP 5 is also at least somewhat interesting as well.
6th)  PD 4 up.  This one isn't even close.  TP a boring ho-hum par 5.  PD one of the best short par 4's you will ever play.
7th)  PD 5 up.  Once again, not even a competition.  PDs 7th hole can go up against any other hole...on any course.
8th)  PD 4 up.  This is an interesting hole at TP south. I've heard many talk about the merits of 8 at PD...but I didn't get it.  I guess I need to take another look.
9th)  PD 5 up.  Another ho-hum muni straightaway hole at TP, and another great hole at Pacific.  Awesome tee shot, with a tricky approach to the lower green.
10th)  Half - Once again being generous here.  TP 10 does require some strategy in terms of positioning off the tee.
11th)  PD 6 up.  World class par 3 at PD...just another long hole at TP thats getting old and repetitive.
12th)  PD 5 up.  The 12th at TP is a pretty neat hole that requires 2 great shots with some punishment around the green for offline shots
13th)  PD 6 up.  Another world class hole at PD, doesn't need to be re-stated.  While I actually really like the strategy on TP 13, still short of PD shawk and awe.
14th)  Half - While I really like this par 3 at PD, 14 at TP has some good qualities including the tricky approach.
15th)  PD 7 up.  Nothing much going on at TP on this one... Straight fairway then find the green.  15 at PD requires all sorts of obstacles to overcome including the fairway bunker ~60 yards short of the green.
16th)  PD 8 up.  TP south is just another long par 3.  16 at PD has more strategy on that one hole that I think the entire course at TP.
17th)  Half - More generosity here.  17 at TP takes two good shots to score well.  PD is also a nice Redan version.
18th)  PD 9 up.  Not even close on this one John and if I have to explain how hideous that pond is fronting the green then....well

So PD wins 9 up in a landslide.  TP does manage to eek out two holes though 8 and 12.   I may be convinced to go half on 13, but that would be about it.

How do you see it John??
« Last Edit: March 17, 2008, 04:50:26 PM by Kalen Braley »

John Kavanaugh

Re: How much affect does Golfclubatlas.com have on the rankings?
« Reply #63 on: March 17, 2008, 04:54:12 PM »
Kalen,

I just remembered St. Louis CC....sorry BRQ.   You have not played Torrey Pines South.  The course reveals itself with perfect fast greens and firm fairways.  Have your named called as you sit on the balcony at Torrey Pines and then tell me the first is a yawner.  I thought time has passed by the greens at Pacific Dunes.  They were a good modern effort in their day but now...eh.  Just slow and boring when compared to Trails and the soon to be built Bandon IV.  I will wait to be proven correct on that one.

Brian Cenci

Re: How much affect does Golfclubatlas.com have on the rankings?
« Reply #64 on: March 17, 2008, 05:01:06 PM »
Everyone sure does love voting on courses where they are members.  Who can blame em?

Sure, as long as you're only listing the best you've played...I'm not suggesting for a minute that I am ranking Beverly, Olympia or Dunes Club as Top 30 golf courses in the country, but they're all in my Top 30.  And I'm betting that Victoria National would easily get into the list when I get that done...

The ethics question itself is simple to answer: If somebody is a rater and they are a member of a club, they should not submit a rating.

The great unethical thing about my list is that I payed to play less than half of the courses listed.   Damn...I forgot Canyata.  This is such dirty business.


Riviera
Ballyneal
Pinehurst #2
Kiawah Island
Olympic Lake
Olympia Fields
Butler National
Bandon Dunes
Lake Side
Torrey Pines South
Erin Hills
Bandon Trails
Briarwood
Lawsonia Links
Canyata
Pacific Dunes
Bandon Crossings
Bellerive
Pasatiempo
Valhalla
Glen Echo
French Lick Ross
Beverly
Santa Anita


Of my top 25, I've paid to play 22 of them (and 1 of them I used to work at and have never payed to play), so I don't agree with your theory that you have to pay for golf to be objective and rate the course.  

Of your list I've played 7 (Olympia Fields, No. 2, Kiawah, Lawsonia, Bandon Dunes, Bandon Trails, Pacific Dunes).  Lawsonia better than Pacific Dunes?  You're in a distinct minority of 1 on that thought.  Of the 7 of your list I played I would put them in order as: Kiawah, Bandon Dunes, Pacific Dunes, Bandon Trails, Olympia Fields, No. 2, Lawsonia.

-Brian





Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How much affect does Golfclubatlas.com have on the rankings?
« Reply #65 on: March 17, 2008, 05:04:24 PM »
Kalen,

I just remembered St. Louis CC....sorry BRQ.   You have not played Torrey Pines South.  The course reveals itself with perfect fast greens and firm fairways.  Have your named called as you sit on the balcony at Torrey Pines and then tell me the first is a yawner.  I thought time has passed by the greens at Pacific Dunes.  They were a good modern effort in their day but now...eh.  Just slow and boring when compared to Trails and the soon to be built Bandon IV.  I will wait to be proven correct on that one.

John,

1) Perfect fast poa anna infested greens? 
2)  I would bet any amount of money that TPs fairways are not fast and firmer that PDs...this assertion is just plain silly.
3)  Having your name called is legit, but PD is at least equal in terms of pre-round jitters and hearing the sea in the background.
4)  The greens at PD are no where close to slow and are some of the purest greens I've ever putted on.  I guess if you play 10+ stimping greens everywhere else then they may seem slow to you.

I'm curious what you have in response to a long slog of long par 3's and 4's where finding the fairway is the only requirement on most holes.  A few holes are nice, and I have duly noted them.

I think your posts would have more credibility if you would point out specific things as opposed to "boring greens" or the "balcony at the pro shop"

John Kavanaugh

Re: How much affect does Golfclubatlas.com have on the rankings?
« Reply #66 on: March 17, 2008, 05:08:51 PM »
Brian,

I can not ignore the value of Lawsonia.

Kalen,

Poa greens can be perfect, I understand the ones at Cypress are nice and Riviera is my number one course.  It just hit me...I love kiku fairways and rough. 

John Kavanaugh

Re: How much affect does Golfclubatlas.com have on the rankings?
« Reply #67 on: March 17, 2008, 05:11:22 PM »
Kalen,

I think any course without a par 3 over 230 yds or a par four over 470 is out of the loop.  Sorry but really, shouldn't any 25 year old less than a 10 handicap be asked to hit a 3 iron once in a while?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How much affect does Golfclubatlas.com have on the rankings?
« Reply #68 on: March 17, 2008, 05:17:08 PM »
John,

I don't doubt that Poa greens can be good, when foot traffic is kept low on them as I would suspect is the case for Riveria and CPC.  But they are bumpy especially in the afternoons.

As for judging the quality of course as "out of the loop" because it doesn't require a 3 iron is silly.  But just for shits and giggles, playing PD 10 and 17 with the prevailing wing, I can gurauntee most are hitting at least a 3 iron..even the 25 yr olds.

John Kavanaugh

Re: How much affect does Golfclubatlas.com have on the rankings?
« Reply #69 on: March 17, 2008, 05:24:16 PM »
John,

I don't doubt that Poa greens can be good, when foot traffic is kept low on them as I would suspect is the case for Riveria and CPC.  But they are bumpy especially in the afternoons.

As for judging the quality of course as "out of the loop" because it doesn't require a 3 iron is silly.  But just for shits and giggles, playing PD 10 and 17 with the prevailing wing, I can gurauntee most are hitting at least a 3 iron..even the 25 yr olds.



I had this gut feeling that I had played another Raynor besides St. Louis CC....Lookout Mountain...Now I have to go revise it all again.  How do you raters do it...I should be out at the goat drinking and I am still at work compiling a list.  I am put out.

John Kavanaugh

Re: How much affect does Golfclubatlas.com have on the rankings?
« Reply #70 on: March 17, 2008, 05:28:10 PM »
Here is the revised top 25 not including courses where I am a member or where my brother was the architect.

Riviera
Ballyneal
Pinehurst #2
Kiawah Island
Olympic Lake
Olympia Fields
St Louis CC.
Butler National
Bandon Dunes
Lake Side
Torrey Pines South
Erin Hills
Bandon Trails
Briarwood
Crooked Stick
Lookout Mountain
Lawsonia Links
Canyata
Pacific Dunes
Bandon Crossings
Bellerive
Pasatiempo
Valhalla
Glen Echo
French Lick Ross

note:  Just remembered Crooked Stick..Sorry Beverly.

« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 06:58:56 AM by John Kavanaugh »

Brian Cenci

Re: How much affect does Golfclubatlas.com have on the rankings?
« Reply #71 on: March 18, 2008, 09:54:25 AM »
Here is the revised top 25:

Riviera
Ballyneal
Pinehurst #2
Kiawah Island
Olympic Lake
Olympia Fields
St Louis CC.
Butler National
Bandon Dunes
Lake Side
Torrey Pines South
Erin Hills
Bandon Trails
Briarwood
Lookout Mountain
Lawsonia Links
Canyata
Pacific Dunes
Bandon Crossings
Bellerive
Pasatiempo
Valhalla
Glen Echo
French Lick Ross
Beverly




What is it about Olympia Fields that you rank it higher than Bandon Dunes & Pacific Dunes?

John Kavanaugh

Re: How much affect does Golfclubatlas.com have on the rankings?
« Reply #72 on: March 18, 2008, 09:59:42 AM »
The greens are far more interesting and difficult.  I love the high ceilings in the restroom.  Those two items alone put it over the top of a very good resort.  It is easy to miss the subtle greatness of Olympia Fields on just one play.  The place breathes well.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 10:03:48 AM by John Kavanaugh »

Brian Cenci

Re: How much affect does Golfclubatlas.com have on the rankings?
« Reply #73 on: March 18, 2008, 10:50:54 AM »
If we're comparing non-golf items, you can't beat Olympia's clubhouse and yes if I remember the bathrooms were great.  Plus the dplit hot dog at the turn are terrific.  However, nothing in this world has come to match the bacon, chicken, ranch wrap that you get out at Bandon and Pacific.  Thing is so good!

I like how Olympia had many of the bunkers almost cut into the putting surfaces, that was somewhat unique.  But, take away the ocean and Bandon and Pac Dunes are still better when you compare hole-by-hole.

-Brian

John Kavanaugh

Re: How much affect does Golfclubatlas.com have on the rankings?
« Reply #74 on: March 18, 2008, 10:55:34 AM »
Do me a favor and compare the par 3's eliminating the ocean views.

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