News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #150 on: April 22, 2008, 11:27:36 AM »
"That is a fair question and a good one, and one I am not sure I have the right answer.    My hope is that, if we would all quit giving them a pass for their incivilities, then they will stop.  Bullies will be bullies until their community lets them know it will no longer be tolerated.  I'd like to see that happen here.
Personally, I'd rather just see them removed from the site until they can control themselves, but obviously no matter how bad it gets that is not going to happen.  So it seems the choices are to let them control the site, the agenda, and to run off anyone they please, or to stand up to it, expose it, and hope they get the message."




MY GOD, is this really what these Merion threads are turning back into, AGAIN----another diatribe by David Moriarty about bullies and incivility???


RAN MORRISSETT-----what in the hell is going on with this website?? What do you want to do here? Do you want to just LOCK all these Merion threads until David Moriarty finally gives you what he's been telling us all day after day he will? FINE, then do that and let's get on with it someday.

Or do you want us all to go to some God-damn MISS MANNERS school FIRST so David Moriarty can calm down and stop with this constant diatribe about incivility?

Just do something, will you please? Too damn many of us on here are getting sick and tired of these petty little games.

All we really want to do on these threads is discuss the ARCHITECTURAL HISTORY OF MERION to see if the record may need some straightening SOMEHOW!!!!


A post like this one isn't insulting or incivil to anyone. It can't be. It's just a plea for some efficiency and productivity on this website.


RAN, if you think me and Mike Cirba and Wayne Morrison and whoever else apparently constitutes this preposterous "Philadelphia Syndrome" that Moriarty and MacWood keeping harping on on these threads and wasting everyone's time should just excuse themselves and get off this website until that "White Paper" gets produced then just call one of us up or email us and say the word. I'm certain we would be more than happy to accommodate if it can somehow prevent these constant diatribes of those two guys about incivility coming out of this town of Philadelphia!
« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 11:39:30 AM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #151 on: April 22, 2008, 12:41:42 PM »
Ran,

I second that motion.

A few weeks back when I began to have suspicions that things weren't on the up and up here I wrote and asked that the two threads I started be DELETED.

Please reconsider doing so now.   

This whole cat-and-mouse game is not only a humungous waste of everyone's time, it is demeaning to this website.

Anyone who has ever met me, or even just had dialogue with me on this site would laugh at this sudden caricature of me as a "bully".

If you think I've said something offensive here that you believe wasn't warranted, please just delete my User ID and I'll be on my way.

This is ridiculous.


David,

You didn't even have the decency to answer Sean's question and these games are truly, truly absurd.


TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #152 on: April 22, 2008, 01:02:32 PM »
"Anyone who has ever met me, or even just had dialogue with me on this site would laugh at this sudden caricature of me as a "bully"."


Mike:

I sure agree with that as I think most everyone on here always has. But obviously you've been hanging around me and Wayne Morrison too much lately. Do you think we can brainwash Joe Bausch into our dedicated "Philadelphia Conspiracy Syndrome" philosophy any time soon?

 :P


Phil_the_Author

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #153 on: April 22, 2008, 01:08:42 PM »
Tom & Mike & David & everyone else,

Might I make a suggestion? Instead of Ran removing these threads so that the nonsense stop, why not do it on your own and simply no longer participate in any Merion threads until David posts his IMO piece?

If no one is posting then no posts will be considered offensive by anyone...

I would also suggest that if Tom Macwood wants things posted on here then HE should do so. For someone who has left the site he certainly has had a lot of thoughts posted recently.

Tom Mac, I say that because I WANT you back and contributing to a healthy debate and sharing what you've learned. Using go-between's has not had the desired effects that I believe you were seeking - that is a lively issue related discussion. You need to be back on site for that to occur... in my opinion.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 01:13:29 PM by Philip Young »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #154 on: April 22, 2008, 02:38:48 PM »
I don't know that anybody gives anybody a pass for incivility.  To be fair, most probably feel it isn't their place to scold other GCAers.  We are all guests.  Some have spoken up on your behalf, but you make it difficult when you continously harp on the matter.  Are you asking that contributors on this site rise as one against Tom P and Mike C?  If so, I would suggest you concentrate on matters that you control.  If that means you leave the site I guess you have to do what you have to do.  I for one hope you will publish your IMO piece and let it do your talking.   

Sean,

As for why I don't let things slide, I was still more thinking of the Tom MacWood bullying,  when TEPaul ruthlessly attacked MacWood and another poster, calling MacWood a "piece of shit" and the like.   We all have an obligation to stand up against that type of garbage on this site, just as we should someone who was that out of line in person. 

As for the attacks on me, I dont take them nearly as personally as they are meant.  People glance in and assume it is going both ways, but it seldom is. 

But I do understand what you are saying.  And believe it or not I have tried to focus on substantive matters. 

Read my old posts.   I am happy with my substantive contribution so far.   I am no angel, but I am pretty much sticking with the topic.

But let me ask you a question:   What am I to do when you ask me a question?   If I answer honestly it is an affront to some, because i am harping on civility.  If I do not answer you immediately then to others my act is indecent, and part of my absurd game? Look at the response generated so far from my answer to your question.  I am promoting some Syndrome?  I called Mike Cirba a bully?    I'm playing cat and mouse games?  I am not on the up and up?

As for letting my words do the talking.  I have tried to and will continue to do so.  But even my IMO has already all been dismissed as a vengeful vendetta anyway.


Two things solve the entire issue, I think:

1.  We ought to treat each other as decent people would gentlemen if face to face, even if that requires sometimes stepping in when someone is being unfairly pummeled.

2.  We ought to I try to take what others say at face value, and quit making accusations assumptions about motivations and such.     

I'll try to remind myself of this more often.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #155 on: April 22, 2008, 03:05:59 PM »
But it's quite a while later and what are my feeling now about all this? Well, I think Tom MacWood wrote a very good article on Crump and I've told him so many times and I've told this site the same thing many times. But am I glad he did it? Not at all, even if it was a good and considerate article.

Back then and even on reflection, even if I certainly understand the need to find the truth on most things and how much this site likes that and respects it this will always be one I'd make an exception on that way.

 I have no idea why Crump shot himself, and Tom MacWood doesn't either. Noone does and they never will. But obviously his mother didn't want what happen to her son to be known and it had to be her who constructed that story that night in Jan 1918 of how he died even if the police could clearly see it wasn't the truth (matter of fact I'm almost completely sure he did not kill himself in Merchantville as the DC says, I'm almost certain he shot himself right there in his little cabin at his beloved Pine Valley and his body was removed to Merchantville obviously on his mother's request). I believe her's was the story that held for many many decades (sudden death by poison to the brain from a tooth abscess) and the thing that most all thought happened although there were some who knew about that suicide rumor. I heard about it around thirty years ago. Should I have been a good researcher and gone sniffing around to prove he committed suicide?

Not in my book--not ever. Call me a less than dedicated or ambitious researcher, I don't care. I love that place and a lot of the people from it and I never would want to do that to them or Pine Valley or the memory of Crump.

Call me a sentimental sap, I don't care, I wish the hell they'd left everything about the Titanic down there where it is with all the people who went down with it too. I think some things should be left to the mysteries and mist of time. I think there's a certain respect in doing it that way.

This is just so well said, and so obviously truly felt.....

It is the product of the emotion that comes with a personal connection to something that is the subject of outside scrutiny, whether it is well-intentioned research or not. There's no argument or rhetorical device that can talk someone out of a feeling like this. The obvious other side to the equation is that there are a lot more people out there who don't have a personal connection to the bit of history that is being scrutinized, and have a curiosity about things, sometimes scholarly and sometimes prurient.

I've never had the experience TEPaul has had, where something near and dear to my heart is being opened up and examined in a public way, so I can only imagine the feeling. But I have had instances where I was reading about something or watching a show about it on television where I felt like an intruder, like I didn't really have a right to see what I was seeing, or to know what I was being told. It's not an argument against research or history-revealing endeavor to say this, again, it's just a feeling I had.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I've found all of these threads, the Pine Valley threads, the Merion threads, to be some of the most interesting reading I've had on this site, and not all because of GCA revelations - sometimes it's more the revelation of personal character. I've heard say that golf reveals one's character more than other games, and now I'm finding that golf course discussion can do the same thing.

For myself, I don't really care if they bring up artifacts from the Titanic, they're just things. The people left them behind long ago. I'm fascinated by the contents of King Tutankhamen's tomb, even though its discovery and display can be termed desecration or archaeology, depending on your perspective. But I'm wholly OUTSIDE of those situations, and so it's easy to feel that way. Your position, Mr. Paul, is a more difficult one, to be close enough to have revelations like those regarding Mr. Crump be painful, and yet wise enough to know that in cases like this the truth tends to come out eventually anyway, as painful as it is.

My last comment - was Wilson an esteemed enough figure at the time he purportedly went on his pre-1912 voyage to the British Isles that some mention might be found of his visits at the courses themselves? Just wondering. Probably already asked and answered.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #156 on: April 22, 2008, 03:26:39 PM »
"Two things solve the entire issue, I think:

"1.  We ought to treat each other as decent people would gentlemen if face to face, even if that requires sometimes stepping in when someone is being unfairly pummeled.

"2.  We ought to I try to take what others say at face value, and quit making accusations assumptions about motivations and such."

Hear, hear!  Great advice for all of us to follow.  I would add that we should also refrain from attributing comments or inferences to other people which they have not made, and avoid erecting straw men that we can easily knock down so as to bolster our own positions or opinions.

MCirba,

As a defender of certain aspects of "classical" gca and on some political issues, you most surely are a bully.  Not a menacing one at all for a fact, but no less unequivocal as to the correctness of your closely held beliefs.  Your ever-present smile and warm charm are indeed disarming which only makes you all that more dangerous.  You've been trained well.  Congratulations!  But just like with everyone's best friend and "America's Guest", Thomas Huckaby, you don't fool me with that aw-shucks, everything is cool demeanor.  Shall we ever play again (or argue a fine point of gca) I will hold on to my wallet tightly and expect to receive my full handicap adjustment!   ;)

I do look forward to the final chapter and the conclusion of the Merion story.  Maybe I am wrong, but it seems that the stories behind modern golf courses are so much less interesting and compelling.                


Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #157 on: April 22, 2008, 03:35:15 PM »
Lou,

A bully picks on the defenseless and weak.   I don't see that I've ever done that here?  :-\
« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 03:38:29 PM by MPCirba »

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #158 on: April 22, 2008, 03:39:01 PM »
"This is just so well said, and so obviously truly felt....."

KirkG:

Thank you for that but you know, at this point, I really don't want to just harp on some of my feelings or emotions or maybe my deepest sentiments about something like PV. More than ever as time goes by on here I definitely do realize there are many different people on here with many different thoughts and emotions and agendas, and I definitely don't use the word "agenda" in a negative way--I mean it in a positive way. I can understand all that probably should be respected if one possibly can but it does get hard sometimes and I feel myself becoming conflicted over it more than I ever remember.

But that's life, I guess, unless I just want to philosophically rationalize it all by calling it my "Big World" theory.  ;)

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #159 on: April 22, 2008, 04:00:50 PM »
"2.  We ought to I try to take what others say at face value, and quit making accusations assumptions about motivations and such."


David:

I like that one a lot. I've been looking at it a while now.

So, I will make you a proposition of how we can maybe get past that concern. How about if I or we just really take what's said at face value and try to act like it makes no difference who said it--you, me, MacWood, Cirba, Morrison, whomever?

That way we will just be dealing with face value of what's said. Can you handle that even if we hit some of the assumptions and conclusions of the face value really hard if it seems to us that we should? Can you handle that and not take it personally simply because it's your work product?

Of course I have no idea at all what you may say in this piece of yours so this is all just asked over a "for instance".

We have questioned motivations of some people like you and MacWood but so have you two unless you can't understand that telling us we're too close to our subject to be objective, or that we practice shoddy research methods or that we are a bunch of bullies is not questioning and attacking our motivations.

Sometimes it's hard for me to remember some of the distinctions, if there even are any, between what you and MacWood said on here about Merion or us. It seems to me to be very similar, but that's just been my take.

But I like your #2 and if you freak out over something we say about the face value message of your IMO piece or anything else you say on here I will bring it back up and remind you of it (#2).

Can you handle that?   

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #160 on: April 22, 2008, 04:17:32 PM »
MPCirba,

I often feel this way here (feeble and helpless), but, of course, I was only kidding (hence the  ;) ).   Bullying is a particularly hot topic in today's society, which would be interesting to pursue at greater length in a more appropriate setting.

From my perspective, you are not a bully at all.  You do, however, have a point of view on many topics of interest and you are amply capable of defending it as you deem necessary.   To the extent that your opinions are contrary to those others may hold, and depending on how forceful (figuratively) you are in supporting your arguments, SOME of those folks may attribute (incorrrectly, in my opinon) certain characteristics of a bully to you.  Again, I am not among them.

As you know, I like strong opinions and heated but sincere debate.  I do have a particular problem when people recharacterize arguments made by others and inaccurately put words in their opponents' mouths, something which happens more than occasionally here.  Rather than avoiding certain hot topics because of potential divisiveness and unpleasantries, David Moriarty's simple, thoughtful advice seems a much better solution for all on this site.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 04:19:27 PM by Lou_Duran »

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #161 on: April 22, 2008, 04:43:20 PM »
Kirk Gill:

When I responded to your last I just looked at about the first line, then I got a phone call and cut it and pasted it and made my post. I did not read the rest of your #156 until just now. That post is just amazing and so appropriate at a time like this.

You said this to me:

"This is so well said, and so truly felt",

and that's exactly what I'll say to you about your post, except it's a lot better because if people on here read it and really consider it we can probably chop the occassional tension on here in half at least. When things heat up on here because people really are so differerent with their different backgrounds and thoughts and agendas, all of which are fine in and of themselves, I wish everyone could keep your post right in front of them and read it. To me it's printable and I'm going to keep it handy in the future.

If people on here really consider what you said it's a huge subject and one probably demanding a really good thread or even an IMO piece.

I'm going to consider it some more, and what-all it can mean for this site and otherwise and get back to you with more thoughts on what you said, what I think you're driving at and and where it can go. That post of yours just may be a huge salve to some of the things that go on here and to some of the people like me who perpetuate them.

Good for you, particularly at a time like this when clearly some people on here are really on edge!

« Last Edit: April 22, 2008, 04:46:30 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #162 on: April 22, 2008, 04:52:12 PM »
Lou,

I understand what you're saying.  Thanks!

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #163 on: April 22, 2008, 04:57:28 PM »
Mike Cirba:

I was just reading Lou Duran's posts about you with real interest.

I don't think you're a bully at all but you do have very strong opinions sometimes, you know that and so do I.

Nevertheless, you are totally full of shit sometimes! You know that too don't you, and you do understand where I'm coming from when I remind you of that from time to time, don't you?




Nah, I'm just joshing you, I just wanted to see if you were still on your toes or even still on your feet! That was quite a last 24 hours or so, wasn't it? :P

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #164 on: April 22, 2008, 05:08:50 PM »
Tom,

My head hurts.   Where's the wine?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #165 on: April 22, 2008, 05:09:30 PM »
Mike Cirba,

I did not intend to call you a bully nor did I, but if I gave you that impression, then I apologize. 

As for whether or not you have been civil in these matters, your posts speak to for themselves.
_______________________

Tom Paul,

Thanks for your deal offer, but no thanks.  I'll continue to try and follow those two simple rules on here, and leave you to do as you will.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #166 on: April 22, 2008, 07:03:44 PM »
"My last comment - was Wilson an esteemed enough figure at the time he purportedly went on his pre-1912 voyage to the British Isles that some mention might be found of his visits at the courses themselves? Just wondering. Probably already asked and answered."


kirk:

Good question and I guess that's pretty hard to say at this point.

Hugh Wilson seems to me to be pretty typical of a 30 year old member of a club like that when they tapped him to do this. He was Princeton educated, he'd been the captain of that college's golf team but it doesn't seem like he played all that much golf but maybe we can't tell that because he didn't seem to play the kind of tournament schedules some of the others like Crump did.

But from reading so many letters from him you do get a good sense of what he must have been like. He had a neat little sense of humor in his letters, but very clearly he was a real doer and he undeniably had a real curious mind seemingly about anything he got involved in.

He was one of those people who looked really good but he was never really in good health. In many ways in some of his photos he reminds me of young JFK.

My sense of Hugh Wilson from all that we know about him which of course is never enough is that he was exactly the kind of guy who if you sat him down and explained architectural principles to him and showed him what they were on a course he would pick it all up in a flash like a sponge. To me he seems like one of those people who are just natual born problem-solvers and with Wilson he didn't waste any time getting at it, that's for sure.

I think he was the type of person that if most anyone saw him and met him and talked to him they would invariably describe him as an all around very attractive guy.

Wayne_Freedman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson's overseas voyage
« Reply #167 on: April 23, 2008, 12:29:41 AM »
If this thread ends, for what shall we live?




Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back