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Joe Bausch

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Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« on: March 13, 2008, 10:04:21 PM »
In a previous post I suggested that the early editions of the Philadelphia Ledger and articles penned by William Evans could be rich.  Well, you be the judge.

Today when I had an hour to kill after academic advising I went through another month of the Ledger from late 1913.  I ran into a little blurb about the Seaview golf course on September 14, 1913, but it isn't penned by Evans:



Hmmm, a nice little tidbit, but nothing much.

But then on October 12, 1913 is the typical Sunday article on golf by Evans that is mostly about an upcoming womens tournament...with a subtitle of info about Seaview and other golf gossip.  I've included the entire article just for the heck of it.  Note that there is a little question about Wilson's involvement with the design of Seaview.  But also note the statement that "Mr. Wilson some years ago before the new Merion courses was constructed, visited the most prominent courses here and in Great Britain and has no superior as a golf architect."


« Last Edit: March 14, 2008, 09:05:34 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2008, 10:14:39 PM »
Joe,

This is an absolutely wonderful find, and frankly a treasure.

It should also thankfully and finally put to rest modern revisionist notions of Wilson being some type of hands-off, patrician architect who wasn't actively involved in the details or primarily responsible for creations attributed to him.

More and more it's seeming that Mr. Wilson had his hands up to the elbows in course design, construction, and agronomy far more than probably any of us knew until fairly recently, and I think it can now be fairly said that Hugh Wilson's design career extended from about 1910 until his death in early 1925, with reports in his last 6 months indicating that he was likely going to help with the design of the second municipal course for the city and he was helping good friend William Flynn with his Marble Hall Links, shortly after they had made significant routing changes to Merion East to prepare her for the 1924 US Amateur.

He was clearly a collaborator with others, but he also was a driver.


btw, the routing that Hugh Wilson designed for Seaview is exactly the same as today's "Bay" course, although some holes have been renumbered.   There was also much more bunkering on the original course than was first thought, much of which still exists today.

Donald Ross was brought in during 1915 to do additional bunkering because the only initial complaint about Seaview was that it wasn't difficult enough.   It must be remembered that during this period the focus of the Philadelphia School was to build "Championship Courses" (like Pine Valley and Merion) that would help to develop local players for national competitions, and that was never the intent of Seaview.   

I also suspect that Ross was brought in at that time because in the intervening period after Seaview opened til 1915 Hugh Wilson was;

1) Designing a second course for Merion
2) Building additional features and bunkering on the East course.
3) Helping friend Ellis Gimbel with a renovation (and brand new holes attributed to him) of Philmont South.
4) Possibly designing Phoenixville, if anecdotal attributions are correct
5) up to his eyeballs for six months on another project important to Clarence Geist, closer to PHiladelphia in a municipal park.  ;)
« Last Edit: March 13, 2008, 10:54:15 PM by MPCirba »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2008, 10:44:42 PM »
Just to complete the thought, it's now obvious that Hugh Wilson was in huge demand as the local "expert" after returning from overseas and designing Merion.

He was also considerably stretched, because let's remember...he was an "amateur architect", which was tremendously important in the days when anyone who took money for design (or even was viewed as an architect) risked losing their cherished amateur status at a time when golf "pros" were viewed as "Hired help".  His real job was to run his insurance business.

In December 1914, probably as much out of exhaustion as anything, Wilson resigned as the Green Committee chairmanship at Merion, and it was reported;

"He personally constructed the two courses at Merion and before the first was built he visited every big course in Great Britain and this country.  He also laid out the new course at Seaview.  Pressure on business compels him to give up the chairmanship."

Despite his intentions of focusing on business for awhile, once the Cobb's Creek project got approved in mid 1914-early 1915, Merion and GAP President Robert Lesley came knocking on Wilson's door to lead this collaborative civic effort with other well known local amateur architects like Crump, Klauder, and Ab Smith who had direct personal course design and construction experience.


TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2008, 05:57:53 AM »
The mention in that article that Wilson visited courses on the other side of the ocean a few years previous is interesting. It was documented that he came home in the spring of 1912 just after the Titanic went down and he may've even been scheduled at one point to sail on the Titanic and obviously that's where that long-lasting Merion story came from.

But the question is was he over there before 1912 and before Merion East went into construction? This article seems to imply he was but just saying "a few years ago" is a bit inexact.

All those debates about whether or not Wilson was over there BEFORE Merion went into construction sort of amused me because it seemed like some were implying if a ship's manifest could not be found to confirm the fact he sailed over there before Merion went into construction he probably wasn't over there.

The thing that most don't appreciate is people that back then like Hugh Wilson tended to go over there a lot and to think 1912 was his first time is sort of illogical for that reason.

Furthermore, Wilson owned an insurance company that dealt in ship insurance and he probably was a regular traveler. Actually, from other evidence such as those 12 year agronomy letters to Piper and Oakley,  for a guy who wasn't all that well most of his adult life, Hugh Wilson was a constant traveler all over the place.

John Sabino

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Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2008, 08:07:02 PM »
Joe - I agree with Mike, this is a significant find, thanks for sharing.

I would also note that in an article published in Golf Illustrated in February 1915, written by A.W. Tillinghast, he notes that, "Like a sensible gentleman, he knew that the course was much too young to analyze too closely, for it is not bunkered as yet and he resolved to reserve his opinion until the future had developed the links to completion."

Mike - If Ross did the bunkering in 1915, I wonder if they weren't the first set?

By the way the opening shot on the course was hit by Chich Evans, Jr. in a match against J.D. Travers and Oswald Kirkby.
Author: How to Play the World's Most Exclusive Golf Clubs and Golf's Iron Horse - The Astonishing, Record-Breaking Life of Ralph Kennedy

http://www.top100golf.blogspot.com/

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2008, 12:30:32 AM »
Joe - I agree with Mike, this is a significant find, thanks for sharing.

I would also note that in an article published in Golf Illustrated in February 1915, written by A.W. Tillinghast, he notes that, "Like a sensible gentleman, he knew that the course was much too young to analyze too closely, for it is not bunkered as yet and he resolved to reserve his opinion until the future had developed the links to completion."

Mike - If Ross did the bunkering in 1915, I wonder if they weren't the first set?

By the way the opening shot on the course was hit by Chich Evans, Jr. in a match against J.D. Travers and Oswald Kirkby.

Joe,

Not long ago Joe Bausch uncovered another article that was written at the time Seaview opened.

It includes a hole-by-hole description which makes pretty clear that the course was indeed bunkered.   It also points out that the "design intent" was not to create another Pine Valley, but instead to be an enjoyable recreational course.

However, at the time, the idea of Championship Courses was the mantra in Philly, and in the first few tournaments held there, the one complaint was that although the greens were quite undulating and challenging (they were referred as "even better than Garden City"), it seems that tee to green it was a bit less than supremely challenging, especially given the flat property.

If you IM me with your email address, I'll be happy to send you a copy of the article.

Thanks
Mike

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2008, 10:16:07 AM »
This and a couple of other threads puts to rest the conventional view that Hugh Wilson was some sort of one hit wonder.

You guys have completely reshaped what we know about him.

Great work. Keep it coming.

Joe confirms a suspicion I've had for years that the real history of golf architecture is still buried in the bowels of newspaper archives all over the US. Relying on Tillie, MacK and the other ususal suspects only takes us a very short distance.

Joe's research is a revelation in terms of both content and methodology.

Bob


Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2008, 11:24:32 AM »
This and a couple of other threads puts to rest the conventional view that Hugh Wilson was some sort of one hit wonder.

You guys have completely reshaped what we know about him.

Great work. Keep it coming.

Joe confirms a suspicion I've had for years that the real history of golf architecture is still buried in the bowels of newspaper archives all over the US. Relying on Tillie, MacK and the other ususal suspects only takes us a very short distance.

Joe's research is a revelation in terms of both content and methodology.

Bob


Bob,

I just got an email from Joe that he's come up with some more interesting stuff at the library this morning.   He's indeed a research dynamo!

And you're right...Hugh Wilson was indeed a dynamo, as well, and it could be fairly argued that the Family tree of US Golf Course Design history has a direct line from CB Macdonald to Hugh Wilson, which would conjoin with Tillinghast (his own line coming from Old Tom), and then branch into Thomas, Flynn, and converge with Crump (which would come more directly from the TIllinghast line).

In other words, If CB Macdonald was the Father of American Golf, Hugh Wilson would arguably be the first born son.

Kyle Harris

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2008, 11:25:50 AM »
Tom MacWood, if you're reading this, please come back now. It's been over a year and I miss you.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2008, 11:29:02 AM »
Tom MacWood, if you're reading this, please come back now. It's been over a year and I miss you.

Kyle,

In case you're wondering, Tom MacWood is well aware of the Cobb's & Wilson threads and their conclusions.   

He was not surprised in the least to hear of Crump's involvement with Cobb's and is enjoying what's being uncovered as well.

I've had dialogue with him regarding this and I'm confident that if he didn't agree with the findings and conclusions he would have told me.   He's certainy not a wallflower in offering his opinions.

Mike

Kyle Harris

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2008, 11:33:19 AM »
Tom MacWood, if you're reading this, please come back now. It's been over a year and I miss you.

Kyle,

In case you're wondering, Tom MacWood is well aware of the Cobb's & Wilson threads and their conclusions.   

He was not surprised in the least to hear of Crump's involvement with Cobb's and is enjoying what's being uncovered as well.

I've had dialogue with him regarding this and I'm confident that if he didn't agree with the findings and conclusions he would have told me.   He's certainy not a wallflower in offering his opinions.

Mike

I'm glad to hear it. Looking back, it appears that ego may have gotten in the way a year ago when Wilson's architectural involvement was broached in terms of Macdonald's help.

Too hung up on the definition of Alps and not enough on what Wilson was trying to do and the system by which he designed.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2008, 11:35:30 AM »
Kyle,

This is what he wrote me about 2 months ago when the Crump stuff was first introduced;

Joe B. has uncovered a wealth of fascinating information, and not just on CC. I wouldn't be
surprised to see Crump involved at CC, especially in the early stages.
When I was researching Crump I found his buddy AH Smith claimed he had
been involved in laying out of CC (as well as PV). Design by committee
was popular in Philadelphia in those days. Wilson has always been the
main name associated with CC.

Kyle Harris

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2008, 11:38:47 AM »
Kyle,

This is what he wrote me about 2 months ago when the Crump stuff was first introduced;

Joe B. has uncovered a wealth of fascinating information, and not just on CC. I wouldn't be
surprised to see Crump involved at CC, especially in the early stages.
When I was researching Crump I found his buddy AH Smith claimed he had
been involved in laying out of CC (as well as PV). Design by committee
was popular in Philadelphia in those days. Wilson has always been the
main name associated with CC.

A sad undertone to both Crump and Wilson is that is appears that golf construction became the addictive drug of choice to fuel their failing health. Oddly enough, Willie Park, Jr. probably worked himself to death in a similar manner and spent the latter years of his life away from design work in Musselburgh, with Mungo Park becoming the field designer for the design work toward the end of the 1920s.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2008, 11:45:20 AM »
Kyle,

You can add Seth Raynor to that list, as well.   George Bahto believes he basically worked himself to death.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2008, 12:37:54 PM »
I think we ought to resist the temptation to read too much into the "early" deaths of architects of the era.

Life spans generally were much shorter then. Lots of people in lots of professions worked themselves to death. I would guess that - as an actuarial matter - they as a group had more or less average life spans.

Bob 

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2008, 12:41:57 PM »
I think it's pretty tough for some of us today to understand and completely appreciate where Hugh Wilson was coming from in the world of architecture and certainly agronomy back then, and how he was perceived back then in the world of architecture and how different it was from the way we look at golf architects and golf architecture today.

To completely understand people back then like Merion's Wilson or Columbia CC's Walter Harban and a few others around the country of their basic ilk which would also somewhat include C.B. Macdonald, Devereaux Emmet, Travis, Tillinghast, Fownes, Leeds, Crump, Thomas and even Behr and Hunter et al one has to really step back and try to look at the world of American golf and architecture and agronomy from their vantage point at that time and not our vantage point from our time.

First of all, we need to ask why those types of guys got into this amateur architect mode and modus operandi which seemed to spawn a significant amount of collaboration?

We also need to look carefully at the general perception in golf at that time of the projects they were doing. For instance, pre-teens and into the teens which courses were getting the most attention in America for quality and excellence? It seems to me those courses were the ones they were doing.

Then we need to ask why they were the ones whose courses were getting the most attention in that early time probably up until 1920 or the early 1920s?

Were those guys better than the peripatetic professional architects of that time? Probably not or probably not necessarily so what was it about what they were doing and the way they were going about it that was getting the most attention for excellence in architecture or courses or even with agronomy or construction? With the latter we probably need to throw in another remarkable person who also wasn’t a professional----eg the very rich quaker inventor and innovator, Frederick Winslow Taylor!

Why were these types of people doing what they were doing back then?

That’s what we first need to ask and answer before we can really understand what a man like Hugh Wilson is all about and how he fits into the history and evolution of things like American architectural and agronomic development.

Pre-teen and into the teens what were their professional counterparts like Alex Findlay or Tom Bendelow doing and how were they doing it? I’d say they were doing what they did really quickly and they were on to something else. The problems encountered in construction and agronomics with what they left behind may’ve been severe and probably through no fault of theirs. Did those early architects have crews or agronomic advice? I don’t think so. The first early exception may’ve been the evolving career of Ross but not by much in the teens. How about the crews of those early amateur architects? I think that sort of answers itself and how they worked together with those amateur architects constantly and over huge periods of time.

These early amateur architects of the type of Wilson were beginning to supply the complete package and it took time, lots of time, and a lot of their own OJT too because back then there really wasn’t much to turn to for support or advice----so essentially they had to create their own and they did.

Golf, golf architecture, its construction and agronomy was so young back then I think the likes of us today have a hard time appreciating what it was and how different it was compared to our time. Those guys like Macdonald, Emmet, Leeds, Wilson, Crump, Fownes, Tillinghast, Thomas, Frederick Winslow Taylor were the first all around experimenters in a whole host of things to do with golf and architecture and construction and agronomy. The fact that none of them or most all of them, particularly early on never really had clients obviously massively helped their innovativeness, adventurousness, willingness to collaborate and just stick with some of these projects for so long in all the things that involved them.

And at the end of the day that modus operandi produced the best of the best. It's no accident most all those courses they did were considered to be the best of their time are still considered today some of the best ever done.

In my opinion, back then it had a lot more to do with just time than just talent.

« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 12:55:30 PM by TEPaul »

Kyle Harris

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2008, 01:13:35 PM »
I think we ought to resist the temptation to read too much into the "early" deaths of architects of the era.

Life spans generally were much shorter then. Lots of people in lots of professions worked themselves to death. I would guess that - as an actuarial matter - they as a group had more or less average life spans.

Bob 

Bob,

You're probably right, but the longevity of others like Ross, who delegated a lot of work out to associates as compared to the relatively short life span of the architects known to really put sweat and blood into the work like Wilson and Crump shouldn't be ignored, especially as Wilson and Crump were both men of means whose financial stability could have afforded a much more leisurely pace to life.

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2008, 01:31:28 PM »
As far as this question of when and how much was Hugh Wilson overseas in preparation for the Merion project this article sort of intimates he was over there before his documented 1912 trip but it's not much more than an intimation.

But the way I look at that type of thing some of the early Merion history books actually mention that Wilson was over there for many months during one trip. We know his 1912 trip was only a few weeks.

I doubt those Merion history writers who apparently implied he was over there in 1910 and for many months probably didn't just make all that up out of whole cloth. They must have been looking at some physical evidence of that which for whatever reasons may not be available to us today.

Evidence of absence is definitely not the same thing as absence of evidence as some on here have tried to make it appear.  ;)

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2008, 07:53:09 PM »
Tom,

The term "some years ago" to me seems to imply more than one, more than two, and at least three.

We've come across a couple of accounts from different writers all in the same time frame who suggest it was definitely BEFORE construction started, so I think you're right in the sense that whatever trip took place in 1912 was not the trip in question.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2008, 09:11:54 PM »
As far as this question of when and how much was Hugh Wilson overseas in preparation for the Merion project this article sort of intimates he was over there before his documented 1912 trip but it's not much more than an intimation.

But the way I look at that type of thing some of the early Merion history books actually mention that Wilson was over there for many months during one trip. We know his 1912 trip was only a few weeks.

I doubt those Merion history writers who apparently implied he was over there in 1910 and for many months probably didn't just make all that up out of whole cloth. They must have been looking at some physical evidence of that which for whatever reasons may not be available to us today.

Evidence of absence is definitely not the same thing as absence of evidence as some on here have tried to make it appear.  ;)

Tom

I think you are being a bit harsh on guys who look for documented evidence of events.  As you rightly point out, because documentation is lacking doesn't mean something didn't happen, but it sure makes the pieces fit together better when there is documentation - especially in cases where events are not quite clear. 

For instance, you state that the Merion history writers must have been looking at some physical evidence to deduce that Wilson went to the UK before starting on Merion.  Why?  Could it not be word of mouth which led folks to believe Wilson went to the UK earlier than might be the case? 

Personally, I like the idea of timelines which detail documentation or lack thereof.  A plausible story of fact and fiction can be woven.  Afterall, its these theories which make people look for the documentation.

Ciao
« Last Edit: March 16, 2008, 04:55:19 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike_Cirba

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2008, 11:26:13 PM »
Sean,

It now seems that a number of local contemporaneous writers all concur that Hugh Wilson did his study of the best courses in the US and Europe before any construction started on Merion East.  These writers have simply verified the stories that have been handed down anecdotally through the past few generations.

While we'd all like to be able to document as much of this as possible, including ship manifests, I think the problem is that because no manifest was found prior to 1912, it was suddenly strongly suggested that everything that had been previously believed was incorrect.

I think that's what Tom is referring to as "absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence". 

Perhaps tomorrow I'll try to cite all of the references from the time we've come upon that make clear that Wilson did indeed travel to see and study all the great courses and he did it all prior to Merion East being laid out and constructed. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2008, 05:18:40 AM »
Sean,

It now seems that a number of local contemporaneous writers all concur that Hugh Wilson did his study of the best courses in the US and Europe before any construction started on Merion East.  These writers have simply verified the stories that have been handed down anecdotally through the past few generations.

While we'd all like to be able to document as much of this as possible, including ship manifests, I think the problem is that because no manifest was found prior to 1912, it was suddenly strongly suggested that everything that had been previously believed was incorrect.

I think that's what Tom is referring to as "absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence". 

Perhaps tomorrow I'll try to cite all of the references from the time we've come upon that make clear that Wilson did indeed travel to see and study all the great courses and he did it all prior to Merion East being laid out and constructed. 

Mike

I am not debating whether or not Wilson was in the UK before Merion.  IMO its largely irrelevant because I don't buy that a guy like Wilson couldn't garner enough US based knowledge to build Merion - especially given how many years it took.  I am suggesting that until there is enough reasonable proof then (usually at least some of it written) then it seems perfectly alright to cast doubt on long held beliefs especially if another theory seems plausible.  Of course, "reasonable proof" and "plausible" are open ended and everybody's threshold of passing the acid test is slightly different.  For me there are three important aspects of all this.  First, is for people to lay out what they know even if some of the info doesn't necessarily jive with the overall theory.  Second, to make the presentation of the info entertaining.  Never underestimate the power of a well written story to convince the reader of the merits of your arguments.  I know this aspect has nothing to do with the facts, but so what?  Third, it isn't likely that the definitive story has been written on anything concerning these issues of design credit etc.  Its important to continue looking and writing.  I spose the problem with this is there is precious little money available either to be made or for the production of this sort of material.  Additionally, even amongst a relatively hard core audience it is difficult to produce enough of something new and/or different from previous works to justify publication. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

wsmorrison

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2008, 08:17:50 AM »
Very few people know what the original iteration of Merion East was like.  Until the changes made between the West Course opening and the 1916 Amateur, changes made prior to the 1924 Amateur, the 1930 Amateur and the 1934 Open are understood, it is impossible for anyone to really know what happened and by whom.  To consider influences by UK trips or otherwise is premature without additional understanding.  If one does not consider the efforts of Frederick Pickering and others, you cannot put into context Wilson's contributions.   While the routing for the most part would be familiar (except 10-13), the original design of Merion East would surprise many.

TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2008, 10:01:54 AM »
Sean Arble said:

"Tom
I think you are being a bit harsh on guys who look for documented evidence of events.  As you rightly point out, because documentation is lacking doesn't mean something didn't happen, but it sure makes the pieces fit together better when there is documentation - especially in cases where events are not quite clear. 
For instance, you state that the Merion history writers must have been looking at some physical evidence to deduce that Wilson went to the UK before starting on Merion.  Why?  Could it not be word of mouth which led folks to believe Wilson went to the UK earlier than might be the case?"


Sean:

You think I'm being a bit harsh on people who look for documented evidence of events do you?

Why do you say that? Is it because I said absence of evidence is not the same thing as evidence of absence? If so, that's a statement of fact. What's harsh about it?

Some of us certainly didn't get along very well with David Moriarty or even Tom MacWood who certainly seemed to imply a much greater influence from MacDonald/Whigam on the architecture of Merion than some of us feel is warranted by a ton of various types of evidence to the contrary including the Wilson brothers themselves. But that certainly doesn't mean I, for one, don't admire Moriarty, for instance, for all the research he did checking ship manifests between Europe and America at that time. But as Mike Cirba just said, it seemed he was strongly implying that if a ship manifest with Wilson on it could not be found BEFORE Merion went into construction that strongly implied he did not go over there BEFORE Merion went into construction.

We don't believe that absence of the evidence of a ship manifest with Wilson on it implies such a thing and furthermore we believe that implying such a thing is pretty illogical and just not very good deducing of the events of history with what is available. Does David Moriarty thinks he searched the manifest of every ship that sailed between the US and Europe during those years? If he does, I'd suggest it’s a whole lot more than just a little unlikely that he’s mistaken.

And then there're certainly other logical ways of looking at what already exists. In Desmond Tolhurst's history book of Merion he mentioned that the club decided to send Wilson to Europe in 1910 to study golf architecture in preparation for the building of Merion East!

Where did Tolhurst get that date and that information? Well, obviously today we aren't exactly sure. But because we aren't sure does that mean he was wrong or odder yet that he just made it up? On the latter, I would very seriously doubt that. But yet, someone like David Moriarty was seemingly implying that since the only ship manifest he could find that had Hugh Wilson on it was the Spring of 1912, that must mean the trip Tolhurst was referring to and that his contention that a trip in 1910 couldn’t have happened. Is that a logical assumption to make? I, for one, don't think so. Why would Moriarty just assume that since that was the only ship manifest he could find with Hugh Wilson on it and that that must mean that was Wilson’s first trip to Europe for Merion? And, even odder, why would he assume that might have been Wilson's first trip to Europe? Those assumptions are not good ones, in my opinion, and they don't seem like particularly intelligent research deductions either.

But you and the others who don’t seem satisfied with what evidence does exist, should consider this carefully. Unless, Tolhurst and former Merion history writers just made up that 1910 trip of Wilson’s to Europe out of whole cloth which seems unlikely, then where did Merion get any evidence of the 1910 trip of Wilson’s they reported? Well, obviously some of them may’ve gotten it from contemporaneous reporting done of that fact. The article from the Philadelphia Public Ledger in October, 1913 is one such example.

In that article, the reporter said Wilson went to Europe for Merion ‘some years ago’! That article was written in 1913 and if the first and the only trip Wilson made to Europe for Merion was in 1912 the previous year (as a David Moriarty seems to believe and seems to be implying), that writer probably would’ve been called on that as inaccurate by Wilson or Merion just after he wrote it. One should probably even consider that that article writer probably checked his facts and dates with Wilson and others in that article BEFORE he wrote it, as good reporters usually do. We, here, in Philadelphia, are aware of a number of facts that were reported in newspapers and periodicals in which the writer was asked to correct various reported inaccuracies. The most notable was probably Tillinghast’s reporting of who made a donation to Pine Valley to finish the course after Crump died. Tillinghast did do a rather comprehensive retraction.

But the thing that fascinates me the most, and is fairly comical, is some today actually seem to feel when some of these old articles from the teens or whatever are found again today that means facts and evidence in them is being found for the very FIRST time. Aren’t they forgetting that probably thousands of people read those articles back then and in many cases those articles were saved by the clubs mentioned in the articles. Perhaps Tolhurst or a previous history writer was looking at that very article posted above or others that were more exact about the dates and Wilson’s trips to Europe.

People like you and Moriarty and MacWood may even try to suggest that some or most of the facts reported in some of those old articles was just wrong back then and has therefore always been inaccurate, but, again, I’d suggest if those articles were reporting totally false facts contemporaneously the writers of those articles probably would’ve been asked to print retractions and report things accurately by the very people they were reporting on, like Hugh Wilson himself.

Just because some of us haven’t been able to find some of those old articles is no reason to ASSUME they don’t exist or never existed or the events they report and explain didn’t happen.

That’s the problem I have with researchers on here who just ASSUME an absence of evidence is basically the same thing as evidence of absence.

By the way, what is an example of EVIDENCE of ABSENCE in the case of Wilson being in Europe in 1910? Well, obviously it would be if we had evidence that he was here in America throughout 1910. We actually did that with Wilson’s whereabouts in the first half of 1911 by the postmarks and stationery of his constant correspondence with Piper and Oakley of the US Dept of Agriculture. In that time span Wilson was in Philadelphia enough to preclude the amount of time necessary to go to Europe.

 


TEPaul

Re: Hugh Wilson, Seaview, and his trip overseas
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2008, 10:19:23 AM »
"Mike
I am not debating whether or not Wilson was in the UK before Merion.  IMO its largely irrelevant because I don't buy that a guy like Wilson couldn't garner enough US based knowledge to build Merion -"


Sean:

Maybe you aren't debating that but God knows many of us on here have discussed and debated that in the past, and with good reason.

Obviously, if Merion and Wilson felt the need to send Wilson to Europe BEFORE Merion East was built and in 1910 and for the reported six to seven months, then apparently both Merion and the committee and Wilson certainly felt the need for him to go over there and get an architectural education.

But you think that's irrelevent and that he could've garned enough knowledge over here to build something as special and revolutionary in inland America at that very early time??

To me that shows a pretty large lack of understanding of what was going on over here architecturally BEFORE Merion East was built (or I should probably more accurately say what WASN't going on over here at that time). This is precisely why Merion East and Wilson is so interesting to some of us----eg there just wasn't anything or anyone much to draw on over here for that type of education. Obviously, that's why Wilson (and perhaps his committee) journeyed to Long Island to talk to Macdonald and Whigam at NGLA for that significanct weekend he and his brother wrote about. We feel, as they reported, that that weekend was a crash course in what to do and also where to go in Europe during those six to seven months to get a good architectural education over there BEFORE beginning the design and construction of Merion East.

For those who really do understand the specifics of the evolution of the architecture of Merion East, particularly the very early evolution between 1912 and 1916 and then 1916 and around 1924 and into the early 1930s, Wayne Morrison is exactly right----eg that SOME of the architecture of Merion East and the look and style of SOME of it began to change quite drastically from examples of a fairly rudimentary or even unnatural look and take on the style and character that would make it famous as well as perhaps the first good American example of its particular style of architecture in America, particularly bunkering.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2008, 10:30:05 AM by TEPaul »