Golfweek Best-In-State Rankings: What determines the number?

[Brian_Sleeman]

With as many raters as this site has (and Mr. Klein), how do they determine the number of courses listed for each state?  It would seem that Michigan, for example, with a greater number of public courses than several (if not all) other states, would have more courses on the Best-In-State list than other states, but this doesn't seem to be the case.

Is there a formula involved or is it just a matter of how many courses receive the requisite number of high ratings?  For example, do they all have to be an average of 5 or above?  Just curious.  Thanks.

[Sean Leary]

I think it says in the magazine. I believe it based on number of courses as well as population.....

[Doug Ralston]

BS!!

Kentucky has only five courses, yet their publics are better than Ohio. And the five given are so far off that it is obvious raters NEVER PLAYED Kentucky public courses.

There is absolutely no way under Heaven Dale Hollow or Hidden Cove misses anyone's Top 5. And they went for mediocre Cherry Blossom as #1. OMG.

They simply never played them, and listened to whomever they listen to rumors.

GW looks absurd!

Doug

PS: Their only route to wisdom, of course was to ASK ME!

[Doug Ralston]

Here is a good place for Golfweek to actually start thinking about Kentucky public courses. These folks have actually played them many times and go out of their way to explain on the site why they rate them thusly. I do not entirely agree with their rating, naturally, but they are in the ballpark.

http://www.golfkentuckylinks.com/Pages/MoeRon%20Top%20Ten.html

But after reading about KY courses, if you want any credibility, actually PLAY them. Otherwise just admit you have no clue and do not list.

Honestly ..................... 

Doug

[Brad Klein]

Brian, have you actually seen the list? The premise of your question is simply mistaken, since Michigan has 15 courses listed, whereas Massachusetts has 10, North Dakota 5. As we state in the magazine, the numbers for each state (whether 5, 10, 15 or 20) are based on course inventory, golf population, quality and depth of public golf.

Brad

[Andy Troeger]

Does anybody know how many public golf courses there are in Michigan relative to Florida, Arizona, and California (the states that I saw in quick look with 20 courses listed)? I would be curious as I know it seemed like Michigan overbuilt for awhile then had quite a few closings. Which state has the most public courses overall?

Seems like you could list more than 10 in South Carolina as well based on the number of courses available but I haven't played enough to know the quality across the board, but most of the states make sense to me in terms of the number of courses listed. Indiana and New Mexico both have 10, although Indiana has four times the number of courses as New Mexico if the numbers I have in my head are correct. Almost all the better courses in NM are public however.

[Doug Ralston]

Brian, have you actually seen the list? The premise of your question is simply mistaken, since Michigan has 15 courses listed, whereas Massachusetts has 10, North Dakota 5. As we state in the magazine, the numbers for each state (whether 5, 10, 15 or 20) are based on course inventory, golf population, quality and depth of public golf.

Brad

And so Brad? Will you then answer for Kentucky? I live in Cincy. I know what Ohio has, what Indiana has, and what Kentucky has. And once again the list for Kentucky, regardless of how few you put in [an I would match KY 10 against a OH 10 anytime], is very wrong. It is clear no one from GW actually played the courses which are so blatantly missing.

Why not just admit you do not know what you do not know. Otherwise, your list becomes a recommendation to readers that is just unfair. I like Clyde Johnson's effort at Cherry Blossom, but I doubt even he would claim it deserves the #1 spot, or even Top 5.

Couldn't you just say in the magazine that no one from GW has had an opportunity to play enough courses in that state to make a quality list? And any other stats where that is true?

Doug

[Brian_Sleeman]

Brad, yes I've seen those criteria listed, and I realize Michigan has more courses listed than most other states - my question is based more on how all those criteria come together, and how each is defined.  For example is "quality and depth of public golf" simply measured by the number of highly rated courses (say 5 and above)?  Does golfing population matter more than one of the other criteria?  Etc.

I can understand that Golfweek might not like to elaborate as that kind of information may well detail why your lists are different from those in other publications and the formula may be proprietary.  I was just curious.

[Doug Ralston]

Brad, yes I've seen those criteria listed, and I realize Michigan has more courses listed than most other states - my question is based more on how all those criteria come together, and how each is defined.  For example is "quality and depth of public golf" simply measured by the number of highly rated courses (say 5 and above)?  Does golfing population matter more than one of the other criteria?  Etc.

I can understand that Golfweek might not like to elaborate as that kind of information may well detail why your lists are different from those in other publications and the formula may be proprietary.  I was just curious.

But what is "quality and depth of public golf" ?  How could you possibly know about said 'quality' if you do not go and play the courses.

I went through discussions about Michigan and Ohio ratings by GW without bringing this up, because I know many people here do not like my divergent views on many things, and often simply refuse to address them.

But it is clear that certain biases have been included in the assumptions about state the have few 'ranked' courses. Of course, if raters do not play the courses of note in any state, how could that states have ranked courses. And still KY HAS had several 'Signature Series' ranked by evil Golf Digest in Best New Affordables over the past several years. How could GW's raters not even look at them and still make some kind of list?

Why pretend to knowledge that is not yours? For states you have not played, why not simply say 'no list available, state not visited"?

*throws up hands*

Doug

[Chris_Blakely]

Brad, yes I've seen those criteria listed, and I realize Michigan has more courses listed than most other states - my question is based more on how all those criteria come together, and how each is defined.  For example is "quality and depth of public golf" simply measured by the number of highly rated courses (say 5 and above)?  Does golfing population matter more than one of the other criteria?  Etc.

I can understand that Golfweek might not like to elaborate as that kind of information may well detail why your lists are different from those in other publications and the formula may be proprietary.  I was just curious.

But what is "quality and depth of public golf" ?  How could you possibly know about said 'quality' if you do not go and play the courses.

I went through discussions about Michigan and Ohio ratings by GW without bringing this up, because I know many people here do not like my divergent views on many things, and often simply refuse to address them.

But it is clear that certain biases have been included in the assumptions about state the have few 'ranked' courses. Of course, if raters do not play the courses of note in any state, how could that states have ranked courses. And still KY HAS had several 'Signature Series' ranked by evil Golf Digest in Best New Affordables over the past several years. How could GW's raters not even look at them and still make some kind of list?

Why pretend to knowledge that is not yours? For states you have not played, why not simply say 'no list available, state not visited"?

*throws up hands*

Doug

Doug,

Why is the Kentucky list so bad??  I only currently have availibe in front of me the 07 list, but of the 5 courses, all 5 are on the rankings of the kentucky website you have recommend many on this site visit before:

http://golfkentuckylinks.com/Pages/MoeRon%20Top%20Ten.html

1.) Cherry Blossom (15th on site above)
2.) Lassing Pointe (1st on site above)
3.) Wasioto Winds (6th on site above)
4.) Kearney Hills (7th on site above)
5.) Old Silo (2nd on site above)

Several of the courses you have spoke highly of, which I like as well:  Eagle Ridge, Stonecrest, Dale Hollow, Hidden Cove etc are on extreme sites that some on the same kentucky site above if I remember correctly do not enjoy.  I think Eagle Ridge is one of them, hence it is ranked much lower on their top 18.

My problem with the Ohio rankings was twofold: first private courses on a public ranking (that is lack of attention to detail) and second purported top tier courses that are not in the top 20.  From the outside observer, it appears the Kentucky Rankings are not way off base.  Should Dale Hollow and Hidden Cove be up there most likely.   Should Cherry Blossom be #1, I would think not.  But at least they have courses ranked that other sites have ranked as well and at least they are all public.

If your questions is why does Kentucky only have 5 courses and Ohio and Michigan more, I believe Brad already answered that question as it appears Golfweek takes a House of Representatives approach with more representatives or in GW case, more courses ranked in areas of higher population.  This makes sense to me, you are going to provide more courses/more resources where you sell or can sell more magazines!

Chris

[Doug Ralston]

Chris;

What is bothering, and bothered me last list, is that no one from GW clearly ever played any of these courses.How can they begin to generate a list by rumors [even mine!], and not go find out?

As for the extreme sites, they are State Parks! I did not encourage Eagle Ridge because I know it is a true 'extreme site', very mountainous, quirky, very minimal,  and either you LOVE it or HATE it. But Hidden Cove and Dale Hollow are an absolute must on any Top 5 list. The State Park Signature courses really are high quality. I would gladly compare them to anything public in Ohio.

And, of course, no one who isn't connected to it would rate Cherry Blossom #1. A pleasant play, but not close in quality to the rest.

Take a tour Chris. Play HC, ER, Stonecrest and Dale Hollow. I promise you will enjoy yourself.

Doug
Doug

[Chris_Blakely]

Chris;

What is bothering, and bothered me last list, is that no one from GW clearly ever played any of these courses.How can they begin to generate a list by rumors [even mine!], and not go find out?

As for the extreme sites, they are State Parks! I did not encourage Eagle Ridge because I know it is a true 'extreme site', very mountainous, quirky, very minimal,  and either you LOVE it or HATE it. But Hidden Cove and Dale Hollow are an absolute must on any Top 5 list. The State Park Signature courses really are high quality. I would gladly compare them to anything public in Ohio.

And, of course, no one who isn't connected to it would rate Cherry Blossom #1. A pleasant play, but not close in quality to the rest.

Take a tour Chris. Play HC, ER, Stonecrest and Dale Hollow. I promise you will enjoy yourself.

Doug
Doug

One must alwasy be carefull with superlatives, then tend to bight one in the you know what.  Better than anything in Ohio!!!  Wow, have you played all of Ohio's courses.  I know I have not played all of Kentucky's.  They are very good courses, but Ohio does have some very good public courses from a strategic standpoint that are not on GW's lists.  I've played most of them.

As I have told you before, Doug,  about those courses you have listed, I have played them.  I am a big fan of Eagle Ridge, one of Art Hills' (Steve Forrest) best!!

As for the four courses you list, funny thing about two of those courses is that they were designed by Ohio architects!!!

Is the Kentucky list that bad?  All of the courses were rated on the Kentucky website you enodorse? 

Do you know none of the raters played the courses on their list?  I know I don't.

Chris

[Andy Troeger]

Doug,
Tastes are different. While there's a lot in these rankings I agree with I always have some questions on certain issues. Rock Hollow and Sultan's Run not making the Indiana public list is a weakness. Kearney Hill isn't anything too special so I can see criticism of that as being Kentucky's 2nd best public. The biggest oddity for me is Sonoma Ranch making #7 in New Mexico. I'd like to hear from anyone who really thinks its better than Santa Ana or Cochiti and why.

As Chris alluded to, you have to be careful when essentially accusing people of dishonesty, especially when I would be totally stunned if GW didn't in fact play the courses.  You can stir the pot without getting carried away with it.

[Doug Ralston]

Chris and Andy;

You are right. I am waiting to see some of GW's raters here answer that question.

Chris, you are right when you say I haven't played all the Ohio courses. And I have only offered comments on the ones I have. And I am certainly not rating them for a National magazine. And the ones I did offer in Kentucky I have played a lot. But still I would not make such a list for GW without going to them with another rater to ask for insights in both directions.

Andy, I agree that it is hard to see how those two Liddy masterpieces are left off. I am somehow unsurprised that Warren is #2. Do you understand my lack of surprise about a course I admittedly haven't played?

Sorry, my cynicism is manifesting again.

Doug

[Andy Troeger]

Doug,
Warren and The Fort near the top of the Indiana list don't bother me. They are both very well done and would make my top five of what I've played in the state.

Bear Slide is good but maybe a little too high, and I think one could do better than Otter Creek. I haven't seen French Lick since the work was done, but always liked Sultan's Run better of the two.

[Matt_Ward]

Guys have to say this -- state ratings can be all over the lot in terms of their credibility. In some states the info may have been vetted by a number of key people and the results will be seen as such.

In other instances -- the info is really lacking. Likely, you get a few people that see only so and so courses and they miss others of real note.

In NJ for example, Golfweek listed Neshanic Valley and Shoregate among the top ten in the Garden State. Frankly, I would not have either that high. On the flip side they did have ACCC, Ballyowen and Twisted Dune in the top three picks. That's a good bit better.