Gentlemen:
How about a discussion of Bayonne vs. Shadow Creek. As I understand it, Bayonne was started from a blank sheet as well. The contrasts are dramatic so clearly, one might prefer a links style over what is viewed as a North Carolina type course or vice versa. My question is which has better holes, better long par 4s, better short par 4s, different par 3s, risk/reward par 5s, etc. I haven't played Bayonne and I only played SC once about 7 years ago so I don't have much recollection of it.
Jerry:
I'll try this on. I've played both over 10+ times (however, I haven't played SC for over 8yrs and I do believe that makes it tougher to be totally fair and unbiased).
Both are magnificent and unique creations from scratch. Each is a great example of the human imagination. Both are extremely fun to visit and play. That said, they are dramatically different experiences. Arriving by limo, then escorted to a lavish locker room with famous nameplates and luxury service, then wandering outside to a lavish flowery garden and eden-like setting all sets the stage at SC. Exotic birds and amazing flower beds couple with the beautiful artificial lakes along the 18th hole.
Bayonne, once it's towering new clubhouse is done, will offer equal luxury and drama. A well-appointed private boat shuttles the player from lower Manhattan onto a dock set hard by the 16th green (often photographed and arguably the best new par 4 built in the East in the Modern era). Turning around here bares panoramic views of most of the NYC Harbor. While I've yet to see the trim of the it's interior, I'm comfortable suggesting that the BGC clubhouse will be no less luxe than SC's.
Onto the golf course comparison.
SC, with it's verdant beauty never gives the senses a rest. The practice area is perfectly manicured. Near every hole is uniquely framed with mature pines and quite a few have strategically placed creeks running alongside and occasionally serving as cross-hazards. Conspicuously absent until the 6th hole is much in the way of real elevation change. The front side has an abundance of mid-to-longer par 4's and two very good par 3's, #5 a canyon-like carry of 170-210 and the sweet little 150ish #8 . The front side par 5's are not very special IMHO. The short and almost reachable par 4 is supposed to be the strategy-critical short par 4, yet I remember always taking the driver out and letting loose. Shy of a few just-off-the-green bunkers, no other strategic impediment calls for much thought. The long par 3 13th lets you know the finish in isn't going to be a cakewalk. #'s 14 & 15 are handily the best par 4's. The greensite for #14 and the creek on #15 both remind any architectural fan of the blank-slate elegance allowed by man's imagination. #16 is a long, unreachable and uninspired par 5 that sets up the beautiful (if not totally artificial and imagined) 17th...a 135-155yd postage stamp green surrounded by a lake, lagoon, bunker and waterfall. Clearly, Donald Trump has spent plenty of time looking at this hole! Finally, the 18th, a great closer, is the best par 5 on the course with a tucked green fronted by another creek. SC overwhelms a golfer with beauty and splendor. That's it's biggest strength.
Bayonne, IMHO, is vastly different. It's blatantly influenced by it's architect's study of several well-known Irish and Scottish masterpieces. Imagine throwing a piece of pottery across 100+ acres set hard against the industrial port of Bayonne with 270degree views of NYC and it's harbor. Now add a few Irish and Scottish strategies (think Dell, Redan, Eden, Leven, Channel, etc..) and toss, and that's BGC. The practice areas are dichotic. Long shots are practiced by hitting balls into a netted portion of the harbor and a fabulous short-game area has 3-4 target greens, several bunkers, canted hitting areas and a putting green. The opening Dell hole leaves a blind approach and sets the stage for a unique experience. A sharp dogleg (with an available, but inadvisable green carry) par 4 follows. The 160-180yd Redan sharpens the senses and sets up for the Royal County Down/Pine Valley-influenced par 5 4th. Wind ALWAYS plays a major factor here (with it's exposure to the harbor) and this 540+ hole even downwind is no bargain. It has a Hell's half-acre cross bunker with another massive quarry-like bunker fronting the green. Great hole, period. The short little par 3 fifth demands a deft touch as it is only 125ish usually with the wind.
The 6th is a fun par 4, but the uphill and long 7th has one of the best green complexes out there (with a little pit bunker along the left side) and allows for multiple ground options on approach. The 8th is the Channel-like par 5, that if driven into a small and narrow fairway slot, permits an heroic carry for potential eagle. It's green has a rolling spine, effectively splitting the green into halves that if on the wrong side brings three-putting easily into play. Playing down the fairway's right side yields safety, but makes the approach tricky to judge. The 9th, a big up-then-down par 4 has a massive undulating green demanding a sharp mid-iron approach.
Bayonne's backside moves you to the water and reveals a great collection of wonderful par 4's. The 12th heads down to the harbor and again, has a series of well-place cross bunker 25yds in front of the green. Here, the wind starts to nearly dominate the strategy. The sharply uphill par 5 13th is a stiff three-shotter. The downhill 14th is a 180-200yd par 3 that plays to a plateau-like green and is all about gauging the building wind. The 15th, short uphill par 4 teases and deceives with a blindly uphill second to a green that rejects excessive backspin (think of the last 100 yds into Friars Head #14). Again, a wild and unruly waste area will find any wayward tee shot here. The #16 is the gem here. 480+ from the tips, it heaves and narrows its way to a terrific green complex that sits jutted out into the bay. With a wide fairway, it appear benign enough, but the second shot here is among the best in the metropolitan area. The green, like most of the other BGC greens, is humped and bumped as well as anything you Doak lovers would see at a Ballyneal or Sebonack. Brilliant hole! The 17th is a very tough (440-490 par 4) reverse Cape that moves along the water (with waste and sand as a buffer) to another pocketed green that has a few tiers and lots of movement. The 18th, almost anti-climatic, disappoints just a tad, but by then you are either worn down by the wind, or ready to head back to the first tee. As I've said before, Bayonne is probably the best Modern match play golf course on the East Coast. Only Friars Head gives it any run in his area and this year's Met Am will define that. It doesn't try to compete with a Merion, PV or Shinnecock. Instead, it brings a very good taste of golf from across the pond to the states.
I am biased (several friends are members at BGC and I have great admiration for Eric Bergstol, it's founder and creator), but with good reason. I know others like Mr. Doak (who I've argued with about this)don't give it the same merit, but I think it's one of the most pleasurable and fun places to set up over a ball. The creation is superb and I find it infinitely more imaginative than a Shadow Creek. It is also more testing with any of it's usual wind. I'd go 8 and 2 with 10 rounds between the two.