[Kalen Braley]

I was hoping my previous question would be answered, but realized I didn't really ask it clearly enough.

If I'm an architect and find some old ruins on a site and incorporate them in play like 13 at NB, I'd bet dollars to dounts I'd get summarily slammed for it.  And I'm not talking about find an old farmhouse and having it serve as a backdrop to a green compex.  Actually putting the feature into play that it must be negotiated by the player.

One would think in the spirit of tradition and the good old days that this would be encouraged and applauded.  Calling Shivas, please pick up the red courtesy phone...I think we need a GCA Hypocrisy thread.   

[Stan Dodd]

Kelly,
I have played numerous times and all too often I played to right and was left with the shot directly over the wall. The bunker is a real gathering bunker, as I watched my brother's ball get swallowed up.  From the left side there is no rerason to even flirt with the wall side of the green as the greenside slope on the left will gather balls back to the green.

[RJ_Daley]

If some of you know the hole... what do you think of the ruins of that old farm house foundation in the middle of a FW at one of Hurdzan's courses (Devils Paintbrush 17th)?  You may have seen the photo as it is featured in Dr. Hurdzans Architecture book.  Frankly, I'd call it needless quirk.  They left the old stone foundation, exactly in the middle of play, yet I assume they had the ability to take it out, place a bunker if they wanted a mid FW hazard, or a tall grass depression, etc.   Is that an example of quirk, purposefully left, not necessary as to efficiency of construction, and contrary to conventional golf sense in that it forces a drop outside the foundation if you get in it?  Sure, if it were a water hazard, it would be a drop as well.  But, wouldn't a man made water hazard similarly placed in the middle of an LZ or separating two LZs as the foundation seems to do, also be a quirk, not necessary to conventional golf play?  

What about "run rigs".  They existed prior to the golf course and are a compromise with the land that previously existed, and are somewhat historical to the agricultural history of the land.  They don't really exact an unplayable lie penalty,  just a quirky little series of nebulous lies.  I think they are natural and and example of good quirk.

Finally on the man made side; what about the convex or inverted bunker on the right side green approach to #5 at Wild Horse.  That is a lacy bunker of grass and sand, and guards the right side of the punchbowl green, rendering the green surface blind on the right, with clear visability to the left side past the inverted bunker.  It was placed there purposefully by the designers, extracts a bit of a playing penalty if you come up short of flying it to the punchbowl, yet is recoverable for an up and down if played well, or worse if not played well.  Frankly, that is what I believe is good manufactured quirk.  It is different, forces a certain style of shot making due to its unusual placement and designed style, yet doesn't fly in the face of playing the game forward.  

[Rich Goodale]

Just for interest's sake, the "Pit" was not built until 1877, when the course was first extended to 18 holes.  At that time the tee was well to the right and the hole played to 275 yards.

And Kelly, knowing you I'm sure you are spoofing us and still having visions of Pits of Sugar Plums dancing around your head every Christmas eve.......

[Jon Wiggett]

Kelly,

I think with the 13th you have to look at the situation as it was and not how it might be over a centuary later and in another culture. Why is the hole built behind the wall and not on the dune as you suggest? 1. The base of the dune is sheltered against the wind the dune not. 2. The dune, from recolection, doesn't offer any suitable natural green sites and you try digging one out by hand. 3. Dune is also too dry to sustain suitable sward without irrigation. 4. Wall was still required to contain the grazing animals.

For me the hole is outstanding and not a poor relation at all but I understand why you don't like it(your loss not mine ). I would however say thatt because you couldn't chip over the wall from two feet away probably shows a deficiency in your game and not the hole as to take your argument and apply it to other holes means that the 12th at ANGC is worse. You can't play out of the water,

[Tim Nugent]

Jon hits on something to consider when looking at old courses and their features. That being, what was the technology available at the time for not only construction but also maintenace.  Sure today you could carve a green out of that dune in a day, import standardized materials to construct a perched water table, and develop an elabroate irrigation system to deal with ensuing conditions. But back then, thing were built with and for the technology of the day.

As to the wall, is the hangup because God didn't put it there?  From a strategy standpoint, it is not that much different than if it were an equal height sand dune.  Odss are if you hit is you would bounce back far enough to be able to lob it over.  Only by rolling up to it can you get stymied.  But then, you executed a poor shot - deal with it.  What about the bulkheaded dune at Royal St. George's.  Those ties are man-made and placed there by man and after the course was constructed - so what?

Architectually, I think todays architects tend to leave things that are old as homage to prior use and histiory of the site and to give it a new course some built in history.  Plus, they know that if they constructed it, they would  probably be criticized but if was already there, they get a pass. 

[Sean_A]

Jon,

I am pretty open to interesting quandries, my point had nothing to do with the fact I was stymied by a wall, but the fact that I putted through an opening in the wall over I should add astroturf, that struck me has too odd even for me, it was a bit like being on a miniture golf course.  You make a good point about the choice of green site with regard for site conditions and the period it was routed.  Again, I would probably choose a different green site including the possibility of a location on the dune.  I suspect once you traverse the ground you might find a suitable site, you might not, I don't know but my desire would be to find out before settling on the site by the wall.

Again, I feel Stan has made the most convinicing argument for the green site, maybe all of you already knew of the strategy for playing the hole and I am late to the discussion.

The notion that it is similar to an equal height dune is ridiculous.  I can imagine a number of different scenarios that would have very different outcomes if it were a dune as compared to a wall.

Kelly

The bunker is a feature, but to be honest, it isn't necessary as the play is to obviously (once one plays the hole a few times) get as close to the wall as one can without allowing the wall to interfer with play.  In fact, I think the bunker does two things which I don't like.  It can save a ball from nestling into the all and it road marks the strategy of the hole from the tee.  Its almost as if (and I do think that bunker is relatively new) whoever slapped that bunker in wanted to show players the ideal place to approach from.  If anything, I would have put a bunker in on the seaside of the wall just past the green to catch out folks playing overly safe with the approach. 

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

In 3 rounds I didn't notice the bunker either- but last tiem I posted the above I noticed it (1951).  I think even an average driver today (me) tends to hit the ball to within 50 yards of the green and I google earth the bunker at 100 yards from the target.

  I would just add that the caddies counsel against driving too close to the wall as the ground funnels the ball right upto it.

[Scott Weersing]

When we talk about quirk, or a golf course being quirky, don’t we really mean…natural? Isn’t quirk a result of leaving natural features in place; features that might be questionable, but yet can work? Is quirk OK when it’s natural, and over the top when manmade?

The first hole that came to mind was No. 6 at Riveria with the bunker in the middle of the green. It is a quirky hole, and it is man-made. I don't think it is over the top. But I can't think of any place that has copied it.

Another quirk is a course with the 18th hole being a par 3, e.g. Pasatiempo. This has to do with leaving natural features in place.

What about the floating green in Coeur d'ALene ? Quirk or gimmick? http://www.cdaresort.com/golf/

[Kalen Braley]

Scott,

I've played CDA and the floating green.  Even though I think its pretty cool, I will admit its more gimmick than quirk.  "Come see the floating green" is almost thier entire marketing strategy.  It is a decent course in a beautiful location though....

And I probably shouldn't include this, but its hand down the nicest manicured course I've ever played.  The fairways are like the greens of many munis I've played.

[Michael Blake]

Paging Wayne Morrison:

Any pictures of Quirky Corner at Merion West?

[Sean_A]

Jon,

I am pretty open to interesting quandries, my point had nothing to do with the fact I was stymied by a wall, but the fact that I putted through an opening in the wall over I should add astroturf, that struck me has too odd even for me, it was a bit like being on a miniture golf course.  You make a good point about the choice of green site with regard for site conditions and the period it was routed.  Again, I would probably choose a different green site including the possibility of a location on the dune.  I suspect once you traverse the ground you might find a suitable site, you might not, I don't know but my desire would be to find out before settling on the site by the wall.

Again, I feel Stan has made the most convinicing argument for the green site, maybe all of you already knew of the strategy for playing the hole and I am late to the discussion.

The notion that it is similar to an equal height dune is ridiculous.  I can imagine a number of different scenarios that would have very different outcomes if it were a dune as compared to a wall.

Kelly

The bunker is a feature, but to be honest, it isn't necessary as the play is to obviously (once one plays the hole a few times) get as close to the wall as one can without allowing the wall to interfer with play.  In fact, I think the bunker does two things which I don't like.  It can save a ball from nestling into the all and it road marks the strategy of the hole from the tee.  Its almost as if (and I do think that bunker is relatively new) whoever slapped that bunker in wanted to show players the ideal place to approach from.  If anything, I would have put a bunker in on the seaside of the wall just past the green to catch out folks playing overly safe with the approach. 

Ciao

Sean,

I like your notion of not being so obvious about the strategy of the hole by locating a bunker there, although I don't recall it having that affect on me, but I am not always the brightest bulb on the tree.  It does add another element of danger when trying to locate the ball in the proper spot.  The other element of nestling up close to the wall I like, that is a very fine punishment.  Having this type of strategy off the tee would negate any notion of putting the green on or around the dune I think because I don't believe you would accomplish the same angle of attack at the green that you have now with the green low. 

Kelly

Sorry, I wasn't very clear.  I meant the bunker hugging the wall is just about the perfect place for a ball to finish up.  I looked out at this hole from the tee on my last go and immediately thought I need to take a club which can't reach the bunker and hit just right of it. 

Tony - you are right, the fairway does slope to the wall - all the more reason why the bunker is unnecessary. 

Kelly - on #18 the smart play is well out to the left, but not as far left as the sunken proshop.  The chip/approach from this side is far easier than form the right and there is no oob to contend with.  If truth be told, this is a poor hole without much to redeem itself except for a good opportunity to finish with a birdie.  It is also comfortably the one hole on the course which I would say is unworthy.   

The par 3 early in the round is the 4th and its a cracker - very much under-valued at NB.

The par 5 with the centreline bunker is the 9th, another cracker that folks rarely mention.

Ciao

[Mike_Cirba]

I think this is an awesome thread.

Too often I think we tend to just accept that sacred cows are untouchable and undebatable.

I don't necessarily agree with Kelly's criticism, but I do like the fact that it gets us all to think and heartily discuss.

I also just looked at the additional pics he posted of NB and my heart literally fluttered as if looking at pictures of an old college sweetheart, many years removed.

[JMorgan]

Here's an aerial of N.Berwick, #13 top left-center:



In '04 they added a new bunker at about 280y behind the existing bunker.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tony

Quirky design sketch, is it an original or modern day copy.

Looking closely, I think it must be old as it has a Sea Monster,
No, wait, no, sorry, it’s not a sea monster, it looks like
Alfie Ward, perhaps looking for his Haskell ball in the sea.

Thought you may have had a valuable sketch, but then, if it is Alfie,
it could be regarded as an antique and may have some value!!

[Allan Minto]

The Pit at North Berwick is undoubtedly quirky but it also feels wonderfully natural to play. The wall belongs there, defining the land once owned by the Nisbet-Hamilton family, before the club acquired the additional land from them, enabling the club to extend as far west as it does today.

It’s also one of my favourite holes, as it requires a little more thought than most 360 yard par 4s. The prevailing wind blows from behind off the tee, so I’d normally select a long iron to take the bunker on the left out of play, as this only leaves a short iron to the green.

The Nisbet-Hamilton’s were great land owners in East Lothian and very enthusiastic golfers. They played an important role in promoting golf in the region and it’s worth considering the impressive portfolio of courses they assisted with. In addition to giving land to North Berwick Golf Club, they also gifted land to Gullane, leased Muirfield to The Honourable Company, built the original Archerfield Golf Club for the residents of Dirleton within their Archerfield Estate, now home to Archerfield Links and The Renaissance Club!

[JESII]

#2 C-nine at Huntingdon Valley...

[Sean_A]

Seeing the closeness of the dune to the beach, I guess it must be a primary dune so I may have to recant my adventure onto the dune looking for a green site.  But what about the tee location behind 12 green, seems to have some potential.



Sean,

I agree the 4th and 9th are great holes, separate from their more famous counterparts those holes along with 14 really stood out for me.

Kelly

I also have a lot of time for the par 5 11th and the par 4 12th. 

The one hole I always wonder about is the 1st.  It often gets panned, but I don't think its that bad - it can't be with that all world green site.  Do you think it is possible to make this into one whale of a par 3 opener?  I am not sure if there is enough space between the 18th fairway and the sunken proshop to fit a tee further up, but I would love to see the idea explored.  You folks who are a whiz at posting aerials - could you post this area of the course?

Ciao

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tony

I just started reading this thread and my first thoughts went, "Got to scan Dickinson graphic..."

Isn't it great to see a poet eschew parallelism and go with, "Pick up or throw"? Or is that superior to ending a sentence with a preposition...

Still have to say, though, while "pick up or throw" comes in handy depressingly often, "sandpit of vast dimensions" must take the usage award.

Mark

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