Gary Player: Bad Attitude=Bad courses?

[Carl Rogers]

Ditto, Mr. Pazin ... MD's are the worst.

[Sean_A]

Digging through my memory I seem to recall playing Hilton Head Nation many years ago.  It was ok and my first taste of Bermuda greens - needless to say this Yanqui wasn't impressed.  It may have been the first time I experienced waste areas as well - I though the idea was kind of strange, but alright.

I have never been a big fan of Player, but I don't have anything against the man either.  Live and let live.

Ciao

[Lou_Duran]

Wow!  Is there not a single person save Tom Doak or Bill Coore who doesn't get blasted on this site?

There are many positive stories out there about Gary Player.  One told to me firsthand by a sometime golf companion in the 1970s dealt with how he was treated by Mr. Player for whom he caddied in the 1964 PGA at Columbus CC.  My acquaintance was just a young kid then, probably not much more than a novice as a caddie, but Player treated him kindly and respectfully.  He related how he had just wiped Player's ball clean and went to toss it back to him, but Player told him in a calm, but firm tone something to the effect, "No, no Tom.  Please always hand me the ball.  My hands are my livelihood and I can't take a chance with the ball hitting the tip of my fingers and injuring them."  Tom told me this somewhat unremarkable story some 10 years after the incident.  That he remembered it so well, and I over 30 years later, is due to the profoundly positive, lasting impression that Player obvioulsy made on this young boy which, in turn, Tom conveyed to me.

I know that none of us ever do this, but do you think that maybe Mr. Player simply misspoke? Could the magazine have made an error on the type of diabetes he may have been referring to?  I too have problems with Type II diabetes which is progressing to insulin dependence.  Without a doubt, the disease has a genetic link, but weight, diet, and exercise are clearly relevant factors.  If I was disciplined enough to lose 30 pounds, my blood sugars would drop to normal levels.  In the absence of weight loss, low carb diets and moderate exercise also greatly reduce the problem.  There may be skinny people with Type II diabetes, but I don't know of any.

As to good Gary Player courses, the one at the Woodlands in Houston is great fun and a fine test of golf.  Has he had interesting sites to work on?  The one in Sun City, SA appears to be pretty interesting. 

[John Keenan]

My son is diabetic and was diagnosed at 5 he is now 23 and quite healthy thank God.

There are 2 types of diabetes Type 1 and Type 2. Type 1 is sometimes called Juvenile Diabetes as it generally occurs in childhood or young adult hood. It REQUIRES injections of insulin. In addition blood glucose monitoring. Nothing is know that "causes" it but it does appear to be genetic as it seems to run in families. Scott Verplank and Michelle McGann are two golfers who both have Type 1 Diabetes. Scott V wears a pump that can be seen on his belt in tournaments. Great guy we have his autographed picture in our den. Both have done a lot to raise money for a cure.

Type 2 also sometimes called adult onset has generally occurred in later life 50+. Weight is a huge factor as is lack of exercise. Generally it can be controlled by diet, pills and exercise. Injections may be needed but it is luckily not common. It is quite different from Type 1. It is also quite common in the Native American community. 

Sadly we are seeing rampant growth in Type 2 diabetes in children in the US. This is a stark change and seems to be related to sedentary life styles of children today as well as issue of being over weight.

If you have other questions please feel free to IM me. 

John

[Darren deMaille]

Ward, I have been around Gary Player dozen's of times.  He is a great role model and very generous with his time.  To bash his course design is one thing,  this site is not a vechicle for your assessment the man's character. 

[Doug Ralston]

Player has been a hero of golf fans, in fact, considered the 3rd superstar with Jack and Arnie. Famous tales; like his knocking himself out with a ball deflected back at him, and his being disgusted when the official woke him only to inform him of the two-stroke penalty for interfering with the flight of the ball. "He coulda let me sleep" is the legendary refrain. Good stuff, even if apocryphal.

I hope he is considered in the largest possible context. He came from a controversial culture, and must stand before the World, because of his fame, and show somehow his position relative to very intense issues. Cannot be easy.

Doug

PS: I have no idea his position on said issues.

[Doug Ralston]

Oops!

Joe tells me Elk Run is Greg Norman. Nevermind! 

[Matthew Mollica]

Ward,

I accept your dislike for Player, but could it have been that he simply incorrectly referred to Type I diabetes when he should have referred to Type II? Alternatively, could it be an editing error?

MM

[Steve Okula]

The people I read on this site who dislike Player are the ones who've never met him.

I was fortunate enough to work for the Gary Player Design Company out of
Johannesburg in the early 90's. I met Mr. Player on numerous occassions, and found him to be a sterling character, gracious, honest, and energetic.

Surely Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicklaus, his close friends, can't both be that awful as judges of character.

I am eternally grateful to Player and his organization for giving me the opportunity of an adventure of a lifetime. They saved me from an otherwise pedestrian existence as a GCS in North Carolina and vaulted me into the international arena.

Through out my association with the Player organization, I was treated with fairness and generosity. I only left because I had finished a project in Seville, and I wanted to stay in Europe, and at the time they had nothing to offer me in this area.

Admittedly, his course design work is uneven at best.  I believe anyone who ever worked with him, if they were honest, would admit having disagreements somewhere along the line regarding his design style.

On the other hand, his Lost City course in Sun City rates a 6 by that infallible critic, Tom Doak.

Gary Player is human, and so he is imperfect, but he stands  head and shoulders above the average guy, no irony intended.

[Tim Nugent]

Chi Chi - the anti-Player small man. (I'm 6'-6", so I can't relate.
Big 3??? What about Trevino? Or was he just more entertaining?

I am constantly amused at threads like this that assume that pro/marquee designers actually "designed" the courses.  Perhaps the reason many of these designs are "uneven" is that they are actually the work of a revolving cadre of various journeyman architects hired to do the actual "design" work.  The problem is when these guys(gals) try to design "what the boss wants" rather than what they would do if were left to march to their own drummer.

Look at Nicklaus, the Jay Morrish/Bob Cupp era courses are noticably different than what came later.  But Jack, at least was smart enough (or lucky enough) to have some long time associates like Jim Lipe, who can evolve with the shared history of the many designs to a point where they get in-sync with the boss.  Same holds for organizations like Fazio or Palmer, especially when the associates start young and stay - becoming clones, but I digress.

If you want to disect the work of a designer, you must look at the affiliations.  Only then will you see the big picture.

[ward peyronnin]

I am glad this thread has given those who know GP a venue to vouch for him; it is always good to see someones better side as well.

I still haven't seen many details regarding his stylistic character or design philosophy with specific examples of hole, shot values, etc. and i am truly interested what makes his work good or bad( asuming he didn't totally relinquish influence to the backroom)

This site has been used for many things since i first logged on in 1999. Calling out a commercially motivated professional player for sloppy or misleading statements if those attitudes influence his involvement in design or golf shouldn't be out of bounds.

But most importantly something just shy of 850 people know more about Type I than they did last week.

[Joe Perches]

As misguided as any of these are his misleading statements regarding Type I diabetes in your interview

At your prompting, I did read the article.

I question your reading comprehension and your emotional detachment.
I think you should reconsider your inditement.

Here are the statements in the article Mr. Player made about diabetes:

My great dream today, if I can, is to influence at least 100 million young people in the world to eat properly and exercise, because the kids are eating absolute crap.  They live on pure crap.

Next interview question: "Why are you so passionate about this cause?"

Because my son, Wayne, has diabetes.  He's type I.  I reckon that in 40 years time, unless there's a miraculous medical discovery, there will be 100 million Americans with diabetes.  It's not a disease anymore - it's an epidemic.  I see a great deterioration in children, and it really perturbs me.  We've got to look after our young people, got to educate them".

Ward.  It seems a praiseworthy goal by Mr. Player.  It also seems your letter is without merit.

There's no linkage in what Mr. Player said about type 1 diabetes and diet and exercise.
He said his son has type 1 diabetes.
It's likely Mr. Player knows the difference between type 1 and type 2 diabetes.
He said diabetes, not specifically type 1 diabetes, might become an epidemic.

Further, his statements about eating and exercise are reasonable.
There is a linkage between age, exercise, diet and diabetes.

His 100M number in 40 years was a bit high to me though.  It seems unlikely, but possible.

The US population should be ~450M in 40 years.  That'd mean that diabetes would have to effect a little more than 20% of the population, up from about 7-8% today.  That's a bit high a percentage I think, but not outlandishly so.

From the National Institute of Health:
http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/overview/index.htm
http://www.diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/statistics/

cheers, Joe

[Gary Slatter]

I first met Gary Player in 1969 and on several ocasions since have always found him to be the superb gentleman golf professional.  I don't base his career on his golf designs, as I don't know who does the work and I have not played that many of his courses, HOWEVER IT MAKES ME SICK TO READ the misguided comments by someone unknown to me, about a major golf superstar who overcame a lack of talent to become one of the best during a long career.  The last time I saw Gary Player he was hosting his family reunion in the Bahamas, and he was a gentleman!   

GCA should be a positive discussion group, far too much bull shit !

[Bill_McBride]

There's a huge difference between Type l and ll, ll is behavioral as l can testify.  Type l is usually juvenile which is sad.  Player is an elder statesman and gets some slack but he can be pretty off the mark.

[Ray Tennenbaum]

The people I read on this site who dislike Player are the ones who've never met him.

I've met him and I don't particularly care for him.  granted, I had heard uncomplimentary things about him from people on the tour.  while I tried to set rumor aside in my mind when I approached him at a senior tour event, his radar might have picked something up -- in any event he had no time for me.  on the other hand, the other 2 or 3 guys were pleasant and friendly and forthcoming.

as far as the steroid remarks go, unless you really take him seriously, it's hard not to believe Player isn't trying to besmirch the reputations of a generation of golfers.

[Lou_Duran]

Ray,

A good friend of mine played in a Tour pro-am with Mark Calc. and told me that the guy was a world-class A--hole.  Yet, I know that Calc has a fine reputation with many people who know him well.  What am I to believe?  That Calc is fallible?  Boy, does he have company!

Bob Huntley can speak to this much better than I can, but during the days of apartheid, Player got a lot of crap throughout the world for his country's treatment of the native population when he himself was an irritant to his government by the way he treated his many African employees and for his public stance of supporting change.  Player may not have been political enough for some, but from what I've read, there was no mistake where he stood.

Not well known today, but in the early days of the modern tour when foreign players started to make some serious strides in the U.S., they experienced opposition and hostility from some domestic professionals.  While these were mostly second-tier players, they resented "foreigners" coming to the U.S. and taking money from "our" purses.  While the anti-foreign bias is still with us today in the overall economy, it is not as widespread on the Tour, though no doubt some remnants of sour grapes exist.

For those who believe that steroids and enhancement drugs are a problem in other professional sports but not in golf, what makes pro golfers different people?  They seem to have problems with alcohol, divorce, anger management, etc.  Why not drugs?

Lastly, if Player has a bad attitude, please Lord, let me have just a little bit of it.  Also, not being prolific in the top 100 lists = bad courses?  Please, give me a break!  The only course of his I've played (I think)- The Player Course at the Woodlands- is on a flat site but is full of strategy and variety, well-bunkered, challenging greens, and perfectly scaled to the surroundings.  To the best of my knowledge, Jeff Brauer does not have a course in the top 100 either, but I've yet to play one bad course he's ever done.       

[Ray Tennenbaum]

Lou --

I don't know about his politics (for one thing I've learned the hard way that the less I know about any pro golfer's politics, the better off I am) but I also don't recall hearing him speak out about apartheid back then.  if he had, I suppose I'd be more inclined to give him credit for taking the initiative against the pernicious influence of performance-enhancing drugs in professional golf.  however I think you'll agree that the one issue is utterly trivial compared with the other.

even apart from that, the older I get, the less I'm inclined to present judgments that go beyond characterizing individual actions.  if I know enough, I feel like I can say, "that was wrong."  but can I say, "G.P. is no good?"  no.  I am, however entitled to judge him professionally by his conduct with me, and think about how likely I am to want to deal with him again.  (by the way, just because a guy is an a-hole to me, I'm not going to judge him, either, just because in life as in golf, if that's how a guy is, I'd sooner him plain be that way as try to convince me what a wonderful family man/political thinker/friend to the downtrodden he is.)

I'm certainly not saying it was better when professional athletes weren't socially acceptable.  but at least there was some understanding that they just happen to excel at a game, and no one expected them to speak as oracles or embody national virtues or lead our children to A Better Place.  one tiresome thing about writing about athletes is the need to polish their halos.

[Steve Lang]

  We have a tee time on the Player Course at the Woodlands CC in about 40 minutes.. Its full of shot making and challenge, and may be the hardest test in the Woodlands.. above Carlton Woods.. 

that Lou liked it, from his well travelled experience, should be duly noted..

when GP came to tell us about the course he was building, his side point was clearly promotion of physical fitness .. get fit and stay fit to most enjoy life..

can't argue with that, but sometimes easier said than done.

no one's perfect, least in gca

[Craig Sweet]

Player was my first golf idol....I had some Shakesphere Black Knight clubs....fiberglass shafts...I bought them through a gun and fishing tackle store that carried Shakesphere spinning rods....to this day I still follow his career and I have never played a Player "designed" course.

[Bob_Huntley]

Ray,

A good friend of mine played in a Tour pro-am with Mark Calc. and told me that the guy was a world-class A--hole.  Yet, I know that Calc has a fine reputation with many people who know him well.  What am I to believe?  That Calc is fallible?  Boy, does he have company!

Bob Huntley can speak to this much better than I can, but during the days of apartheid, Player got a lot of crap throughout the world for his country's treatment of the native population when he himself was an irritant to his government by the way he treated his many African employees and for his public stance of supporting change.  Player may not have been political enough for some, but from what I've read, there was no mistake where he stood.

Not well known today, but in the early days of the modern tour when foreign players started to make some serious strides in the U.S., they experienced opposition and hostility from some domestic professionals.  While these were mostly second-tier players, they resented "foreigners" coming to the U.S. and taking money from "our" purses.  While the anti-foreign bias is still with us today in the overall economy, it is not as widespread on the Tour, though no doubt some remnants of sour grapes exist.

Ray,

Lou hits in on the head here. He did as much as he could at that time and place. Unless you experienced it, apartheid was a pernicious  disease and  that sapped the soul out of the country for nearly fifty years. For Americans to get their knickers in a knot about what one athlete did or not do during that era is particularly laughable in light of what we know of the American Negro Baseball League.

Bob

[Ray Tennenbaum]

Bob --

sorry, I'm begging the question of jocks as social critics.  and I'm actually not trying to tar Player with the apartheid brush. 

but since you bring it up -- to call apartheid a "disease" makes it seem as though no one was really at fault.  I think it's nearer the mark to say that one group of citizens profited by the virtual enslavement of the other, and pretended, or convinced themselves, it was right.

as a matter of fact, the negative things I heard people on the tour say about Player had nothing to do with apartheid or even his being a foreigner, but you can guess at them pretty easily since they've been hashed around a fair amount over his career.  are they true?  I honestly really don't know.

[Craig Sweet]

How a person behaves while he is at work, and how he behaves away from work are like night and day....perhaps those people critical of a golfers "persona" on the course would enjoy being bothered while they work at their jobs?

I think it's great that Gary Player has opinions and he isn't afraid to speak up...but I would not be disappointed if he kept his mouth shut...much like Tiger does....because I do not expect public people to always have to be "public" with their opinions...

[Lou_Duran]

"as a matter of fact, the negative things I heard people on the tour say about Player had nothing to do with apartheid or even his being a foreigner, but you can guess at them pretty easily since they've been hashed around a fair amount over his career.  are they true?  I honestly really don't know."

Ray,

It sounds like you're talking code here.  What has been "hashed around a fair amount over his career"?

I do find myself in the unfamiliar territory of being in full agreement with Craig Sweet, particularly on the matter of public people being "public" with opinions in areas outside of their field of expertise. 

[Steve Okula]

as a matter of fact, the negative things I heard people on the tour say about Player had nothing to do with apartheid or even his being a foreigner, but you can guess at them pretty easily since they've been hashed around a fair amount over his career.  are they true?  I honestly really don't know.

I can't guess at them. What are they and who said them and where did you hear of them and from whom?

Things you "heard people on the tour say"?

You're talking hearsay, or bullshit. Same thing..

[Ray Tennenbaum]

You're talking hearsay, or bullshit. Same thing..

it's not b.s. and it's not hearsay and almost all of it is in the public record.  but apparently you feel your ignorance entitles you to be unpleasant.  since you've cursed your own darkness, I'll leave it to you to light your own candle.