[BVince]

Although PA has many great courses and high rankings from Golf Magazine, Golf Digest, and Golfweek I noticed that there are no courses from PA on Golfweek's Modern list.  How can this be?  Are there any plans on developing new golf courses that will add to the distinguished list?

[Sean Leary]

I am a little surprised Stonewall (Old) doesn't make it....I am a big fan.

[JESII]

Huntsville just ducked out...both Stonewall courses are good (I suspect the Old is very good, but I only played once)...Hartefeld is pretty good...

I think new golf in the area is solid but their rankings may struggle by comparison to neighbors...

[Matt_Ward]

Byron:

The story on Pennsy is that while the odd private layout is still possible in coming forward (e.g. Stonewall) -- the overall development of public golf -- the bulk of such courses being opened nationwide since 1960 -- is still a slow march in the Keystone State.

Candidly, I have said this previously but the widest gap between quality private and quality public likely rests with Pennsylvania and New York. If you belong to the inner circle of clubs these two states will deliver big time. If you're looking for high quality public offerings the overall roster is quite thin in both locales IMHO.

[Jason Connor]

Agree. In 2003 I moved from OH to PA.  I had a bunch of fine public courses available to me in Cleveland (e.g. Ross & Thompson).  The public scene in Pittsburgh was lacking.  Fortunately I had access to Edgewood (Ross) through a professor of mine who'd take me out there.

Part is demographic.  The Pittsburgh area population has changed little since 1960.  Furthermore I heard while living there that Allegheny County is the 2nd oldest (on avg.) county in the US behind Palm Beach County.  So there isn't much call for upscale daily fee courses (the type of course to make the modern list).

And there are so many fine old clubs that there isn't much call for new private clubs.

[mike_malone]

 I think that Jason's insights are probably true for Philly as well. Private courses handled enough of the hard core golfers with means and they were open enough to the rising middle class. The quality of the public courses were good enough for the remaining players. We probably have much of the same demographics as well. Since the 60's the young were more likely to leave the area than to locate here.


    The new private courses were more likely country club courses that did not aspire to the  challenge provided by the classic courses. The new publics were not done by the top designers nor marketed as Top 100 courses.

 

[Tom_Doak]

New York and Pennsylvania are two of the hardest states for environmental permits that I know of.  A wooded wetland is a total obstacle, and they find lots of them when they look.

I think this has something to do with the scarcity of award-winning modern courses in the two states.  Several of the new courses which have been praised here, have a couple of difficult holes which had to deal with the environmental areas.  (Stonewall had relatively few of these, and the permits were still VERY difficult.)

Land cost has something to do with it, also.  New York and Pennsylvania have some of the costliest land in the country ... as do Connecticut, Maryland, and California.  And there haven't been many big award-winners from any of them.

[wsmorrison]

As tough as it is for many private clubs in the area, it is likely that those who never thought they could afford to join a club can get in.  Wait lists are disappearing and there are a lot of incentives and alternative payment plans to join.  Private clubs are advertising and sending out unsolicited mailings.  I even got one from a club that I quit just a few years ago.  The downfall of this is that clubs can get populated with new members that can create problems.  It happened to some clubs around here in the 1970s and it will likely happen again.  Reversing a dysfunctional membership takes many more years than it did to get dysfunctional.  Only a few of the top tier clubs are immune.

[John Foley]

How affordable is land in NY outside of the major population hubs of NYC/LI/Westchester & Philly/Pitt?

I would think the cost per acre is much less than those suburbs. Permitting (and costs associated with such) aside I think there is more than enough land in both states to build a high qulity public course. Western PA & NY are both very large geogrophies.

[TEPaul]

Matt Ward is probably right that the biggest disparity in quality between private and public courses is in New York and Pennsylvania but it seems to me it's also in those states that share the same realities as Pennsylvania and New York. Tom Doak also mentioned permitting restrictions and such in those kinds of states.

The bottom line is the real estate values close enough to draw public golfers from various high population centers in those states are just too high and that means it just isn't possible to economically sustain public golf that's affordable.

Because these things are realities and there's no avoiding them some people sort of look to some type of subsidy from someone or something and those things aren't happening either.

So yes, for really good public golf courses in the future Pennsylvania is probably all used up, unless for some odd reason "public golfers" gets a whole lot richer and decide to spend a whole lot more money playing public golf in a state like Pennsylvania.

So what is the problem here? It's also that for really good quality public courses in Pennsylvania "public golfers" better start thinking about making 2-3 times more money than they do right now!!!

Are you going to blame me for making a hugely undemocratic statement like that? It's just as true as the fact that the economics of high quality public golf will not work in a state like this at the prices "public golfers" seem to expect pay today.

[Dan Boerger]

My observation here in Southeastern PA is that private golf is overbuilt (hardly a revelation on my part, see Wayne's post), and I suspect some clubs will adopt daily fee access giving the public golfer more options and those struggling privates more revenue.

[Craig_Rokke]

I'd agree that nothing outstanding has been built PA over the last 40 years. With more courses coming on line each year (certainly not many as of late) that Top 100 Modern gets harder and harder to make.
Still, I think if GW came out with a "Top 200 Modern", I bet you'd find 4 or 5 in that 2nd grouping from PA.

[Mike_Cirba]

Stonewall Old would certainly be in my Top 100 modern, though I'm not as big a fan of the par threes as Tom Doak is.  Instead, much like Lancaster CC, it's the strength and variety of the par fours that stay in the memory.

[Steve Lang]

  So the bottom line is that Golden Age GCA in an area may be great, but for the public golfer it might as well be on the moon.. or it will be a rare event to play there.. and is mainly of reference value only?

GO west young man, go west!

[Joe Bausch]

Public golf in SE PA is just fine by my standards.  Within an hour of where I live are some solid, nice, and even a couple of very nice public courses:

Turtle Creek
Bella Vista
Honeybrook
Jeffersonville
Cobb's Creek
Lederach
Inniscrone
Wyncote
Reading
Hickory Valley Presidential

If I want to travel 1.5 hours, which I regularly do, there are others.

[George Pazin]

If PA and NY are so tough in regulations, and the land is too expensive, does that mean that California shows a similar disparity between public courses and private courses?

Honest question, I'm not throwing stones. The answer would seem to be yes.

P.S. I'd guess any number of architects could build very enjoyable courses in western PA if given the chance. I'm also guessing they won't get that chance anytime soon, for reasons already stated.

[Jason Connor]

If PA and NY are so tough in regulations, and the land is too expensive, does that mean that California shows a similar disparity between public courses and private courses?

Honest question, I'm not throwing stones. The answer would seem to be yes.

P.S. I'd guess any number of architects could build very enjoyable courses in western PA if given the chance. I'm also guessing they won't get that chance anytime soon, for reasons already stated.

But I assume California has a much bigger tourist trade than Pittsburgh.  And the ability to play those courses 12 months a year, again unlike Pittsburgh. 

Having lived in Pittsburgh 5 of the last 10 years, I didn't know many golfers craving an upscale modern daily fee course.  The clubs were quite inexpensive and many seeking members.

Philly may be different, but I don't think many $100/round courses could make it in Pittsburgh.

[Ryan Farrow]

Jason, I think your absolutely nuts. There is not one average public golf course within 30 minutes of Pittsburgh. Some of the better courses are Birdsfoot, Cranberry Highlands, and Toms Run and those are well over 45 minutes away. If someone were to build a good public course in Pittsburgh, although I don't think it needs to be $100 dollars, the tee sheets will be filled all day, everyday.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The only courses of recent vintage to crack the current"Best in State" ratings list in GD  are Huntsville near Wilkes-Barre, Glenmaura in Scranton, Lookaway in Bucks County, Stonewall Old in Chester County, Totteridge near Pittsburgh, Great Bear in the Poconos and Hartfeld in Chester County. All are private. The new publics, such as Lederach, have not garnered the attention of GD raters.

[Jason Connor]

Perhaps I am. I am not a demographer.  But it seems most golfers already live in the suburbs, close to a course you mentioned.

Maybe Schenley just needs to be remodeled.  There's a quirky course.  "Under the fence, over the road, into the cup."

[Matt_Ward]

George P said, "If PA and NY are so tough in regulations, and the land is too expensive, does that mean that California shows a similar disparity between public courses and private courses?

Honest question, I'm not throwing stones. The answer would seem to be yes."

George, PA and NY have poor public courses save for a small smattering of the better ones (e.g. Bethpage Black, Nemacolin Woodlands, etc, etc). It seems from my experience that those with the $$ concentrated their efforts on the private side. The evolution of public golf in those two locales has come through taxpayer owned muni's and the like. Daily fee golf -- the CCFAD variety and others has taken a very slow turn to the positive side -- especially when compared to other states -- see Michigan and Colorado, as just two quick examples.

California has not seen the same situation as NY and PA. In fact, one can make a very compelling case that CA is likely the leader in depth of top notch public courses -- say the top 10-15 layouts.

I know people have mentioned the land costs and environmental aspects have played a role and I don't doubt that -- but the emphasis has really been on the private side so even when land costs and environmental are thrown into the picture that has not stopped those types of courses from moving forward.

Ryan:

The Pittsburgh area has a few public courses of note -- they are certainly not of national caliber from my viewpoint. I've played the ones you mentioned and Birdsfoot is fun to play, ditto Cranberry Highlands, etc, etc. You failed to mention Quicksilver in Midway as another example. While all of them are decent local options I would not be suggesting they merit a visit to play from anyone outside a 100-mile radius of Pittsburgh.

Joe B:

The courses you listed in SE PA are OK courses to play -- nothing more than that. I will concede the quality of Wyncote, Lederach and Inniscrone but they are more the exception than the general rule. Like I said previously the gap between PA's top public and private is as wide as the Grand Canyon. No doubt the satisfaction level for many people will vary greatly but when one weighs in the quality and range if public courses from other key states in America you can easily discern that PA and NY have been left back at the train station.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe B:

The courses you listed in SE PA are OK courses to play -- nothing more than that.

Ok for you Matt.  They are way more than ok for me.  These are opinions, not facts, if I'm not mistaken. 

[Karl Bernetich]

Isn't this related to the Ashbourne Golf Club closing thread ?
So, is it used up and oversaturated ?

As Wayne said, a lot of the local clubs are hunting for members.
What's the story at Coatsville ?

[Matt_Ward]

Joe:

No doubt that's my opinion. But I've traveled enough in the USA to make a broad statement on the quality of public golf and I've played personally all the top tier candidates that the Keystone State has. Private golf in Pennsy is worlds beyond the public side.

If what's there on the public side floats your boat then enjoy them to the max. All I said, was from my vantage point, that Pennsy could do a good bit more on the public side -- things are lagging back and one can only thank heavens for the likes of Wyncote, Lederach and Inniscrone, to name quickly three good layouts.

[Dan Herrmann]

Karl,
Last time I heard, Coatesville was hurting - membership numbers were down, and they had one guy acting as GM and superintendant.

I asked a member about selling to a developer, but he told me that they couldn't develop the land because of potential runoff into the reservoir below the course. 

Personally, I don't think Coatesville would much daily fee business - I think the course is too difficult with all the hilly lies and narrow tree-choked fairways.

They're in a tough spot.

(For full disclosure, I was a member there for a couple of years until 2001)

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