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Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek's Top 100 Classical
« Reply #100 on: March 10, 2008, 09:40:06 AM »
Raters should visit Palmetto in Aiken SC!

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek's Top 100 Classical
« Reply #101 on: March 10, 2008, 09:52:29 AM »
Sean,

The course usually plays much faster; however, it rarely helps in the context you're describing -- with run-up shots into greens. Maxwell perched most of his greens on plateaus at Old Town ..... like he did at Augusta National the year before with no. 7 and no. 10. It's very difficult to get balls to run up steep inclines to elevated greens like many of these no matter how fast it's running. (Only no. 3, 10, 15 and 18 could possibly receive a runner)

I'm glad you enjoyed the visit. Come back anytime!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek's Top 100 Classical
« Reply #102 on: March 10, 2008, 10:00:39 AM »
Sean,

The course usually plays much faster; however, it rarely helps in the context you're describing -- with run-up shots into greens. Maxwell perched most of his greens on plateaus at Old Town ..... like he did at Augusta National the year before with no. 7 and no. 10. It's very difficult to get balls to run up steep inclines to elevated greens like many of these no matter how fast it's running. (Only no. 3, 10, 15 and 18 could possibly receive a runner)

I'm glad you enjoyed the visit. Come back anytime!

Dunlop

Its not just that the fronts of the greens seem to be lifted a bit (I wonder if some of these haven't been lifted with the onslaught of green speeds?), but many of the greens have swales/wee valleys short of them much the same way Ross did many of his greens.  In a way, Old Town reminds me of Ross except that Maxwell didn't seem to be afraid of using fairly extreme sidehill fairways.  Plus, the bunkering is quite different. 

I can say that with the runup situation that the only Maxwell course I know well, Michigan, the greens are generally much more receptive and the property is fairly hilly though not quite so dramatically so as at Old Town.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek's Top 100 Classical
« Reply #103 on: March 10, 2008, 11:04:12 AM »
I say it every time I see one of these rankings without it being included, but...WHERE is Mountain Ridge CC(Ross/NJ)?  There is just no way this course should be listed outside of the top 100 Classical Courses in the US.

I've always heard that Mountain Ridge won't allow raters on the course.  Anyone know if that is true?  Are there other courses that entirely refuse to accomodate raters? 

Hell of a question, one I'm sure Kavanaugh will jump on when he sees it.  From my perspective as a fairly inactive GD rating panelist, I'd say it's darn clear that MANY private clubs won't give us the time of day.  I can just imagine the response asking for access at Cypress Point or Augusta, for example.  But I gather that's not what you're asking - that you want to know if there are any clubs that actively PROHIBIT rating panelists from playing their courses?  I think there are some of those too, but I can't recall which.  Maybe Bear's Club in Florida?  Friar's Head, at least at one time?

I'd find that to be pretty cool, in a we don't give a shit about ratings kinda way.

TH




Tom:

Yes, that is my question.  Its been awhile since I was in Jersey.  But my impression was that Mountain Ridge relishes excluding raters.  I thought that was part of the aura of the place.  Basically a "screw you" approach.  But I may be wrong.  Hopefully some of the current NJ guys can answer definitively.

Ed

As usual, my memory was more wrong than right.  Here is an excerpt from an 8/9/05 SI-Golf Plus article by Alan Shipnick:

" The oft-told yarn around New Jersey is that Mountain Ridge is so private that it will not allow marauding raters to sully its fairways.  This urban legend has only added to the well-cultivated mystique of the club, which is often described as the most underrated course in Jersey (except by Ridgewood members, who still consider it overrated).

It turns out that Top 100 raters are welcome at Mountain Ridge.  Sort of.  "We have had a couple of raters out this year," says Steve Wolsky, the club's general manager.  "If someone calls us, we'll usually let them play if they're legitimate.  But we certainly don't court the course raters like a lot of the other clubs do." "

Actually, this article contains an interesting comparison between Plainfield, Ridgewood, Somerset Hills, Mountain Ridge and Baltusrol, and includes comments by Tom Doak on CBD, Raynor, Ross and Tilly.  I tried to attach a copy of the full article as a pdf, but it was too large for this site.  Send me an IM if you would like a copy.

Ed
 


corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek's Top 100 Classical
« Reply #104 on: March 10, 2008, 12:06:39 PM »


If this club were anywhere near as restrictive as has been hinted in this thread, there is no way the GM would even answer such a question. ;)

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek's Top 100 Classical
« Reply #105 on: March 11, 2008, 09:04:29 AM »
Sorry but the list needs to include the Old White at The Greenbrier to be valid.

Not because of any of our involvement, but because when it was time to renovate the CSX Executives charged with making the decisions chose the "road less taken" and embraced the CBM/Raynor heritage and honored it by going back to the classic, instead of business as usual.

I'll stand it up against any in the country.  Because it is expensive, not many will fork over the cake to play it, which is the shame of the situation. 

I challenge everyone on this panel to play it, evaluate it, then tell me it is not top 100.

Lester 

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek's Top 100 Classical
« Reply #106 on: March 11, 2008, 04:12:40 PM »
Sorry but the list needs to include the Old White at The Greenbrier to be valid.

Not because of any of our involvement, but because when it was time to renovate the CSX Executives charged with making the decisions chose the "road less taken" and embraced the CBM/Raynor heritage and honored it by going back to the classic, instead of business as usual.

I'll stand it up against any in the country.  Because it is expensive, not many will fork over the cake to play it, which is the shame of the situation. 

I challenge everyone on this panel to play it, evaluate it, then tell me it is not top 100.

Lester 

Lester,

I think Old White is one of the courses that really opened my eyes up to golf course architechture about 6-7 years ago.  I was at the Greenbrier for the weekend, my brother was playing in a golf tournament down there.  The first day we played the Greenbrier Course, the couse with all the hype and which had previousy hosted the Ryder Cup.  I thought it was decent, but very very hard.  The next morning I played the Old White course, never having heard of CBM, and came away thinking about what a great course I just played.  I couldn't for the life of me understand why this course wasn't getting any recognition especially compared to the Greenbriar course.  I'm glad to see you were able to restore the course and look forward to one day getting down there to see it again.  The Greenbriar surely is a magical place, especially when sitting down to lunch after golf and seeing Sam Snead at the table next to ours, and then getting to meet him at a banquet later that weekend.

Jason
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek's Top 100 Classical
« Reply #107 on: March 11, 2008, 05:08:44 PM »
Jason,

Thanks for your comments.  I think the Old White is a much better course than the Greenbrier Course on a number of fronts.  Views, shot values, history, strategy and overall routing.  Glad the Old White had something to do with your realization of the passion.

Lester

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Golfweek's Top 100 Classical
« Reply #108 on: March 11, 2008, 05:13:39 PM »
Lester:

I haven't seen your work, but I saw the "before" version of Old White, and I did not think it would come close to winning a match against Chicago Golf or The Creek, much less National or Yale or Mid Ocean.  If you've put it in their league, then congratulations are in order.

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek's Top 100 Classical
« Reply #109 on: March 11, 2008, 06:10:13 PM »
Tom,

The before version would definitely not rank with those but I truly believe the "after" does because we really re-instated the classic stuff. 

I never told you this, but I visited your Camargo Club as well as others to get inspiration for what we had to do.  I'll e-mail you some pictures of the finshied product so you can judge. 

Lester

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