Sand Hills and Ballyneal

[Tommy Williamsen]

Both Ballyneal and Sand Hills get a lot of positive ink on this site.  I have played Sand Hills about a dozen times and Ballyneal only once.  After I played Ballyneal, I tried to compare the two but came up short.  They are built on similar terrain but the shots to the greens and the green sites are different. Sand Hills seems more exacting around the greens and may have wider corridors.  Beyond that I don't see any differences.  Do you have preferences.

[cary lichtenstein]

I played SH twice and Ballyneal once, not enuf for an intelligent discussion, but I liked BN better for my 2 cents, more varied

[Tom_Doak]

Tommy:

Sand Hills is on a gentler piece of property, which most people never notice because of the scale of the place and the dramatic bunkers.  Therefore it is naturally somewhat wider than Ballyneal, because the bowls in the dunes are shallower and wider.

The two courses are very different in terms of their golf holes, partly because that was one of my goals -- I didn't want Ballyneal to be considered a rip-off of Sand Hills in its architecture -- and partly because Bill Coore and I do things a lot differently than most people realize.

[Matthew Hunt]

Tommy:

Sand Hills is on a gentler piece of property, which most people never notice because of the scale of the place and the dramatic bunkers.  Therefore it is naturally somewhat wider than Ballyneal, because the bowls in the dunes are shallower and wider.

The two courses are very different in terms of their golf holes, partly because that was one of my goals -- I didn't want Ballyneal to be considered a rip-off of Sand Hills in its architecture -- and partly because Bill Coore and I do things a lot differently than most people realize.

Tom, would it be possible for you to provide a contrast of your styles.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy:

Sand Hills is on a gentler piece of property, which most people never notice because of the scale of the place and the dramatic bunkers.  Therefore it is naturally somewhat wider than Ballyneal, because the bowls in the dunes are shallower and wider.

The two courses are very different in terms of their golf holes, partly because that was one of my goals -- I didn't want Ballyneal to be considered a rip-off of Sand Hills in its architecture -- and partly because Bill Coore and I do things a lot differently than most people realize.

I think it was a good call to build something that is so different.  That is why I had a difficult time comparing them.  When I first played Ballyneal, I expected it to be like Sand Hills, which was foolish on my part.  Good for you for being your own person.

[Jerry Kluger]

I think the interesting contrast is Ballyneal vs. Dismal River as both architects did not want to copy SH.  Tom notes that the property at BN is different from that at SH but to me it doesn't make the courses play that different.  By that I mean that they both feel natural, wind conditions often affect the way the course is playing, most of the holes allow for different types of shots with a special emphasis on the ground game. 

DR on the other hand is much different in the way it plays.  I only played it on one day but I felt that the course played much more up and down the sand hills than the others.  Many of the greens required aerial approach shots and this could often present a nearly impossible shot. The greens had some very signifcant contours but they did not feel as natural or workable when considering the surrounding areas.

[Chip Gaskins]

and partly because Bill Coore and I do things a lot differently than most people realize.

tom-

what are two or three things off the top of your head that you can share that are different between you and Bill Coore?

i for one think bandon trails is one of the best courses (minus the 18th) i have ever played.  with that said, pac dunes and ballyneal are near the top of my list as well. 

it would be great to hear a few of the things you think are different.

chip-

[Chuck Brown]

I naturally respect Tom Doak when he says he did not want to rip off Sand Hills.

To all the lesser course architects out there:  Please, start producing ripoffs of Sand Hills.  Gear up production.  I'd like to have four or five faithful copies of Sand Hills in my neighborhood.

[Chuck Brown]

P.S.: As long as there are any ripoffs taking place, I'd quite like to have an array of Tom Doak ripoffs too, although I'd much prefer the original!

[Tom_Doak]

Chip:

It's a nice question, but one which I will decline to answer with specifics.  For one thing, I have never found it a bad thing to be "lumped in" with Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw.  And our overriding philosophies about golf are VERY similar, in part because I've listened to what Ben had to say about architecture for about 27 years now, and because I've been to all the places he told me I should see.

But our methods are somewhat different, and the details of our work are very different.  I love to go and see their courses because I am always shaking my head at things they've built, and thinking that I never would have done that, or that I never would have thought of that.  And I know that Bill thinks a lot of what we do is crazy, in a good way.  We are both amused that some people seem to think we're interchangeable, and that practically no one has ever managed to figure out the differences between our styles ... but we're not going to TELL everyone the differences if they can't figure it out, because that is what makes us unique.

Last but not least, the people who work for us are different, especially in how they affect the finished product.

[cary lichtenstein]

Tom:

I know exactly how you guys are different but I don't want to reveal it because of your trade secrets in design and it will be a challenge for others to figure it out.

But it should be obvious to those who have played enuf of your and Coore's work

Cary

[Chip Gaskins]

and the Di Vinci Code continues....I can see a March Madness exercise coming on this topic..

Tom-
Understood, I can see why you (or anyone) wouldn't want to spell it out, but I did have to at least ask....

Chip-

[Tom_Doak]

Chip:

Don't bother trying to figure it out.  There isn't an easy way to describe some of the differences, which is why I think Cary is bluffing.

[Garland Bayley]

I don't have as many scrupples as Cary. I will reveal. I believe one should consider the process they undertake in establishing their routings, to find a difference.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Just happened to find this on-line.

Renaissance Golf Design, Inc.
3600 Veterans Drive, Suite 1
Traverse City, Michigan, 49684

Phone: (231) 941-7499
Fax: (231) 941-2114
Email:renaissancegolf@aol.com


April 12, 2004

Messrs. Rupert and Jim O'Neal
Ballyneal
216 S. Interocean Avenue
Holyoke, CO 80734

Dear Rupert and Jim:

I am delighted that we are about to get underway with the construction of Ballyneal Golf Club.

For you and your brother it has been a dream for many years to build a golf course in the dunes southwest of Holyoke. For me, it has been a goal for about ten years to build a course in similar terrain to that of Sand Hills Golf Club, a course which raised the bar for all modern designs. We have looked at several pieces of land in that part of the country in the interim, and I have chosen to work on yours because I believe it has the greatest potential to be a world-class golf course.

I first saw the site for Ballyneal almost exactly two years ago, and we agreed at the time that the project should not go ahead until we were confident that the golf course was going to be one of the best in the country; otherwise it would be difficult to attract a membership to such a remote location. However, if the golf course is good enough, the tables are turned. Having a great golf course far removed from the hustle and bustle of civilization is an attractive proposition, as proven by the recent success of such courses as Bandon and Pacific Dunes, Sand Hills, or indeed Pinehurst and Pebble Beach, which were remote in their day, but which are now destinations in their own right.

I've been asked many times what will make Ballyneal different than Sand Hills, and the only answer is that the difference will be in the details. The two properties are just as different in their contours as the great links of Britain and Ireland are different; the dunes at Ballyneal are choppier and steeper, just as the dunes at Ballybunion are different than those at Royal Dornoch. We have strived from the beginning to find 18 original golf holes which stand on their own merits, and I'm confident we have succeeded.

Now all we have to do is go and build it, and we're excited to get started.

Sincerely,


Tom Doak
President and Principal Designer

Interesting thoughts on the difference in terrain though, as he says, the terrain is similar.

[JSPayne]

Tom,

That should be the perfect interview question for anyone wishing to come work with you:

Please describe any differences in architectual (and construction) style between my (TD's) works and those of C&C.

 

It'd at least be interesting to hear the kind of responses you get.

[Adam Clayman]

Tommy, He states 'similar' in the opening of the letter but then mentions their differences. Namely, the choppier dunes. This choppiness allowed Tom to build features with almost no limitations. Bill and Ben didn't have that luxury since the surrounding topography is of a longer more gentle roll to the dune formations.
 In my own experience, it didn't hit me right away, either, but, the differences are relatively significant. FYI, while playing one of my first rounds, Eric Petersen asked me while we walked off the 17th green about the comparison. Well, my mind went nearly blank as I realized how much this question would be asked. Now, after many many plays, the differences are much more apparent.  
 I am a little surprised what Tom says about the widths. I would've said the opposite. His point about the scale is likely correct, but, I don't think the fairways are wider at SH. Although, Tom did vary the fwy widths at certain keys points, such as on #9 and #16.

Clearly one major difference are the transitions from green to tee. Since most of the teeing grounds at SH are placed on their own hillocks, while at Ballyneal the short grass often flows directly to the next hole.
 
 

[Chip Gaskins]

i think the better debate is about the difference of Doak and C&C on other courses than Ballyneal and Sand Hills. 

you quickly get mired down comparing the two courses instead of the overall design philosophies.

i want to hear about differences in design philosophies, not ballyneal and sand hills.

 

[Tommy Williamsen]

i think the better debate is about the difference of Doak and C&C on other courses than Ballyneal and Sand Hills. 

you quickly get mired down comparing the two courses instead of the overall design philosophies.
i want to hear about differences in design philosophies, not ballyneal and sand hills.

 

I'm not sure how you do that.  Neither Doak no C&C have stopped developing their philosophies.  I have played a number of each of their courses.   High Point, Stonewall (old), Ballyneal, and Sebonack came at different junctures in Tom's life.  Of the ones I have played C&C have designed Sand Hills, Chechesee Creek, Cuscowilla, The Warren Course, Hidden Creek, Colorado GC, and East Hampton.  I'm not sure I can find many common threads through out these courses.  C&C have similar looking bunkers, fairways that seem natural in undulation,  and some very undulating sloping greens.  Beyond that I'm not sure. 

TD seems more difficult to find common threads.  That doesn't mean there are not any, I just  don't see too many similarities.  The ground on which each of these courses are built is so different.

[Tom_Doak]

Tommy:

I think your analysis is the best so far.  We are still evolving (although Ballyneal and Sebonack were pretty much at the same time).

I was surprised to hear Mike Keiser say that he walked Bill Coore's routing for a proposed second course at Barnbougle (which is still a ways off), and he thought Bill really "went for it" compared to some of his other work.  It is a dramatic piece of land, but I'd like to think that our first course pushed Bill's envelope a little bit ... just as in Bandon, Bill and Ben built some wilder greens,  more like Friars Head than their desert courses.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Some of the best architects have been the most difficult to type.  One of my all time favorite architects is Herbert Fowler.  I have played a bunch o his courses.  Royal North Devon, Walton Heath, Cruden Bay, Bull Bay (in Wales), and Eastward Ho! are as different from one another as they could be.  So is the land on which they are built.  We talk a lot about working with the land.  Fowler did that as well as anyone.  Today C&C and TD do the same.  It also helps to have good land to work with. 

 

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

When standing on the first tee at Ballyneal, you do tend to think of Sand Hills.  However, it is the difference at the start which should be noted.  They may be on linksland type terrain, but the opening tee shot at Sand Hills is downhill with a good part of the course within your vision.  At Ballyneal, you are hitting up and over with terrain features that clue you into a line on your tee shot; and as you look around, you notice holes mostly obscured by various dunes, and in spots some fairly wide fairways.  These two courses set an architectural bar.

One only needs to look at the Sand Hills and Ballyneal pictures to see brilliance.  Much better yet, these are in the as good as it gets category of greatness.  For years I have listed Sand Hills as my World #1 (I've played 19 of the top 20), and believe Ballyneal belongs among the elite courses.

[jkinney]

IMO it is the difference in the ground that differentiates two great courses. When I came away from Sand Hills, my impressions were of soft, curving lines in the landscape accentuated by the waving wheat in the wind. I found the terrain at Ballyneal far harsher in both appearance and vegetation. IMO both C & C and Doak adapted beautifully to the terrain differences. It is all of our great fortunes that the golfing grounds were so different.

[Jay Carstens]

Here's a new article if you haven't seen it.  The author sounds a little more concerned with food and lodging but there you go.   

http://www.travelandleisure.com/tlgolf/articles/golf-to-sand-hills-and-beyond

[John Kavanaugh]

Here's a new article if you haven't seen it.  The author sounds a little more concerned with food and lodging but there you go.   

http://www.travelandleisure.com/tlgolf/articles/golf-to-sand-hills-and-beyond

Nice to see some positive comment on Dismal.  Congrats on signing up so many members.