Framing with trees, does it defeat the visual intent of the architecture ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

On the bunker thread, "framing", vis a vis trees was brought into the discussion.

On course after course I've noticed trees planted behind greens for the purpose of framing the green, allowing the golfer to "zero" in on his target

Most, if not all of the framing I've seen was done by the "club" long after the architect had left the project.  It was a member driven concept.

Does framing with trees negate the architectural illusion or presentation as intended by the architect ?

In their tree management programs, why don't more clubs eradicate trees intended to frame greens ?

On a related note, I saw a wonderful golf course plant trees BEHIND fairway bunkers, TO FRAME THEM. 

The only problem was, golfers who hit into the bunkers, now had to not only extricate their ball from the bunker, but, either go over, through or around the trees.

YET, these trees remained for a good 20+ years before an architect was brought in to evaluate and restore the golf course.  One of the first things he did was remove them, and remove the trees behind a wonderful skyline green.

How many skyline greens have been compromised by the planting of trees behind them ?   Usually for the express purpose of framing an undefined target.

All in the name of making golf ...... more fair.

In golf's attempt to appeal to a broader spectrum of golfers, have too many wimps come into the game and gotten their way ?

[Dunlop_White]

I just received an email where Eagle Point GC was planting some 300 trees for framing purposes at the direction of their architect, Tom Fazio. Thank goodness it's his own course that he's vegetating and not one of the Classics.

[Dan Herrmann]

Patrick,
Gil Hanse did something that I find extremely interesting at #17 at my club, French Creek.   It's a 200 yard par 3 that you can see from PA23 in Elverson.  It has a lot of Bill Kittleman's influence.

Anyway, it plays slightly uphill, and has elements of a redan-type green.  There are no trees around the green, and in fact, a water hazard lies about 30 yards beyond the green.

But here's where it's cool.  A stand of 3-4 large trees exists about 350 yards beyond the green (they're actually just to the right of the driving range).  They really can play with the golfer's mind, though.  They really throw off your depth perception.

Yes, they frame the green, but from a helluva long way away.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

This is how this hole now exists, plantings place to provide a "background" in the early '80s.



This is how the same hole would appear without the plantings.  The green is actually above the fairway, creating a slight skyline green.



These were planted with the clubs best interest in mind, I'm sure, but were they ever appropriate.  This would be an extreme example of trying to achieve a look without any clue of how to actually do it.  Every attempt to remove them has met with a firestorm of criticism from a very vocal minority.

[Patrick_Mucci]

WH Cosgrove,

Even the trees that remain in the 2nd photo appear to have been planted indescriminately over the last 20 or so years.

Since you're so good at altering the photo, could you eliminate the ornament trees at the back of the green ?

Thanks

[Paul Richards]

one word to all of this -



UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dunlop_White]

That 80's photo is the worst I've ever seen!

[Paul Richards]

>That 80's photo is the worst I've ever seen!


and the second photo is the second worst I've ever seen!!


 

[David Schofield]

W.H, it seems like I've seen that picture before, only it was used to discuss how close tees could be to greens before physical barriers were required...  Perhaps my memory is failing me.

[Tim Bert]

I've never really understood the benefits of framing to the golfer.  I might use a tree or something in the distance if it is perfectly aligned with where I want to the hit the ball (I do this more frequently off the tee than on the approach.)  More frequently on approached I pick and aiming line in front of the green or on the green.  Am I in the minority here?  It seems like framing would only the benefit the worst golfers that need something large and obvious to aim at.  Is framing really a crutch?

I don't find it visually appealing in many cases, but aside from that I'm not aware how it significantly alters the architecture or the game.

[Bradley Anderson]

I would love to hear from our friends across the water on this issue of framing.

Is "framing" the green a concept that has any legitmacy in Scotland, Ireland, or England?

My impression is this is exclusively an American ideal.

[Steve Lang]

  Have too many tree removal experts infiltrated to places beyond their value?  Or will they not be happy until every course is turned into a barren eroded scottish links with pricker bushes (gorse) the only hazard above ground ?

[JohnH]

Have too many tree removal experts infiltrated to places beyond their value?  Or will they not be happy until every course is turned into a barren eroded scottish links with pricker bushes (gorse) the only hazard above ground ?

You beat me to it, Steve..

[Jeff_Brauer]

Patrick,

Not that any of us know, but in the good old US of A, how many true skyline greens are there where you see nothing but sky behind them?  And of those, we will never know the true intent.

For that matter, with many scottish greens set in large punch bowls of natural contours, was skyline greens really the "standard" we thought it was?  Weren't trees an economical way to create the enclosure often found on linksland courses?

And, do we attribute many of the home grown layouts in both countries to that level of sophistication?

[Doug Ralston]

Have too many tree removal experts infiltrated to places beyond their value?  Or will they not be happy until every course is turned into a barren eroded scottish links with pricker bushes (gorse) the only hazard above ground ?

You beat me to it, Steve..

Yes, it is popular to somehow always get around here to the 'all courses should be like the ones I admire' concept. And trees are a favorite when good old "let's all bash 'em together" groupthink comes forward.

This group is replete with elitist, upscale, access know-it-alls, as opposed to your average man in the street know-it-all. That's why I love being here! A cherry cannot be great if it's been pitted. I'm 'the pits'. 

Doug

[W.H. Cosgrove]

WH Cosgrove,

Even the trees that remain in the 2nd photo appear to have been planted indescriminately over the last 20 or so years.

Since you're so good at altering the photo, could you eliminate the ornament trees at the back of the green ?

Thanks

I haven't even been able to get the worst of them cut down, why would I work on getting the more attractive removed?   

Actually I can't  take credit for the complete removal from the photo and the fellow that helped is in Mexico staying away from my free projects.  Where is Tommy N. when we need him?

The plantings in the photo are a perfect example though of a feature added to add some boundaries to the players mental image.  As awful as they are, they provide a sense of comfort to the player hitting their second into the green.  I don't think we can underestimate the need for people to feel that there is an end and a limit.  Without them, even in the bigger context of living, we are left to feel small and uncertain.  The hedge provides certainty and many like that.  Golf, however, is better when we are uncertain.  As players don't we seek to control our games and our swings to provide that very feeling that the above photo provides?  Is'nt the satisfaction of the game in putting order to something that is difficult? 

In another thread we are discussing the 'every club in your bag' phenomena.  doesn't that statement really mean that we are attempting to solve all of the complex issues confronting us with the 14 tools we are provided?  The backdrop plantings really remove the satisfaction of solving the complex problem by making it simple. 

Hit the ball in front of those ugly things and don't go long because the penalty is too great. 

By the way, I'm looking forward to the day wnen I can play through #11 and see those random plantings behind the green.  They have to be better than what we have!

[W.H. Cosgrove]

W.H, it seems like I've seen that picture before, only it was used to discuss how close tees could be to greens before physical barriers were required...  Perhaps my memory is failing me.

Yep you have!  They are just a perfect example of how not to do things in so many ways!  Memory is certainly not your problem!

I have some other new photos f trees blocking tee boxes when that thread gets started. 

[Brent Hutto]

The question in the title does not have a generic answer, although I suspect that many GCA forum regulars think it does.

If an architect designs a green with nothing visible immediately behind the green AND he does it because that's how he wants it to play AND someone comes along later and plants a dozen trees then the answer in that situation would be yes.

OTOH there are thousands of courses, including some very good ones, on which playing corridors were cleared only to a point a few dozen yards beyond the back of the greens. Therefore from the first day of play that hole's "intent" can be presumed to include a backdrop of trees. At my own club there are greens with nothing behind them (including my favorite green on the course), there are greens which have always had trees immediately behind and there are greens behind which trees have been planted in recent decades either for decoration or as a buffer between holes. So it's a mixed bag.

But you have to see the hole in question and you have to either know or make a reasonably informed guess as to the original intent before declaring background trees an illegitimate and harmful intrusion. It reminds me of complaints about MacKenzie courses (Cypress Point anyone?) on which the architect "framed" certain greens with elaborate bunkering. I can sleep quite well at night knowing I don't have better taste in golf-course design than Alistair MacKenzie or for that matter Ellis Maples (architect of my home course). But I guess some people know better.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brent Hutto,

Please reread the initial post.

I was referencing courses that framed their greens after the architect left.

[Dunlop_White]

I like this quote:

Tom Simpson on the 17th at Woking 'The visible background is a wood a hundred yards behind the green. Between the green and the wood, the ground cannot be seen, and in that lies the glory, the devilment of the design. These terms are synonymous. You would only have to put the wood immediately behind the green to destroy the merit of the second shot, for the trees would then focus the green and enable you to judge the distance of the second shot with some degree of accuracy, which is now very difficult to do.' (Circa 1950)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dunlop White,

That's an excellent point.

Hole after hole has been ruined by green committee's desires to frame the green.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Dunlop,
Simpson once again is one of the most eloquent of the acrchitects. 

[Lester George]

FRAMING!!!  One of the words that really tests my patience in golf architecture.  I don't want to go off on a rant......

Overused word.  Misunderstood.  Used mostly by "players" to distinguish the "good" holes.  Over employed by the USGA for 35 years.  We are paying the price on many courses now by having to remove thousands of ill-conceived plantings.

Framing can ruin depth perception and render an otherwise good (or great hole) useless.  It happens every day.  I fight it everywhere.

Enough said.

Lester

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is/was framing greens a method used to compensate and aid higher handicap golfers, which make up the majority of most clubs ?

[Doug Ralston]

FRAMING!!!  One of the words that really tests my patience in golf architecture.  I don't want to go off on a rant......

Overused word.  Misunderstood.  Used mostly by "players" to distinguish the "good" holes.  Over employed by the USGA for 35 years.  We are paying the price on many courses now by having to remove thousands of ill-conceived plantings.

Framing can ruin depth perception and render an otherwise good (or great hole) useless.  It happens every day.  I fight it everywhere.

Enough said.

Lester

Lester;

If you are coming up the left side at #4 Kincaid, and looking at the green from down there, I would like to see how many could guess their distance within 10yd without reference.

Doug