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NicP

Portsea G.C. On the move??
« on: July 23, 2002, 12:40:52 AM »
Calling Mike Clayton! Found this article in the local press this morning. After such significant improvements over the last few years could Portsea be on the move?? And plans on paper yet??


Portsea club on collision courseBy MARK DUNN23 July 2002A

PROPOSAL to bulldoze Portsea's golf course and cash in on a residential development has neighbours in one of Australia's most expensive postcodes taking swings at each other.Some at the prestigious club are in favour of selling the course to developers and re-building the club on a section of Defence Force land offered for sale adjoining Point Nepean. The 300ha tract of crown land is estimated to be worth $1 billion but conservationists, residential developers, local heavyweights and the State Government are all to demand a slice of the site. The 79-year-old Portsea Golf Club, under the directorship of 11 of the district's men, most of them linked to Melbourne's business world, is at odds over whether the historic course should be moved. Club secretary Kenneth Manders said the situation would be discussed by members this Sunday but it was too early to say if the club would move, or whether two courses may operate side by side. "Who knows what the future will hold," he said. If the club does not move, it may miss the opportunity to become what course designers say would be one of the top five links courses in the country. Club co-director Ian Ogilvy said any relocation would be voted on by most of the 800 members, who pay about $1500 a year. Mr Ogilvy said 25 per cent of club members backed relocation, 25 per cent were against and 50 per cent were undecided. The club has been told uses for the divested crown land would have to meet strict environmental and community concerns. "They are not necessarily going to sell to the highest bidder," Mr Ogilvy said. He said a move from the established course "might be to our advantage", especially if a competitor was to bid for the site. "It is something we need to take note of," he said. Real estate agents also want a piece of the action, saying at least the cliff-top views from Portsea's township to the old commandant's barracks should be available for prestige homes. Any developments on the southern flank facing Bass Strait are limited because of unexploded ordinance. Agent Liz Jensen of Kay and Burton estimates 80 1010 sq m (quarter acre) lots on tiered streets along the ridge would go for millions each and sit nicely with a new course. She pictures an exclusive development along the lines of La Perouse at Botany Bay in NSW. "It's logical to me, it makes sense . . . they would have amazing views," Ms Jensen said. But getting concessions from naturalists and a Defence Department eager to be seen to do the right thing will not be easy. "This is going to be a long, drawn-out saga," she said. Those with interests in developing the land are yet to show their hands, but the rumour mill is already running hot. "If you go to the bar at the Portsea Hotel late at night they'll say Lindsay Fox is interested in it, but it's just rumour," Ms Jensen said. "I was talking to someone on the weekend who owns one of Australia's biggest companies and he was saying it won't happen (more cliff-top residences) because the Federal Government can't be seen to be so capitalist."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Clayton

Re: Portsea G.C. On the move??
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2002, 02:01:19 AM »
Nic
I've heard all of the arguments and I can't say too much.
However all the developers want is to get their hands on the golf club land because it is worth so much .There is no option to put houses on the army land and the government want berween 15 and 30 million for it so a golf course is the obvious thing.
I laugh when they say they could have one of the top 5 links courses in the country.
Australia doesn't really have links like Britain -they are more dune like courses like The National or cliffside courses like NSWGC or Flinders.
Portsea is a dune like course but most in Australia would call it a links -and it is already in the top 5 'links' in the country.
I've been on the new land and it would be very difficult to build a course as good as the current one -and that should be the end of the discussion.
Greed ,however, being what it is will ensure there will be some serious discussion.
Ironically the meeting at Portsea is at 10.00 on Sunday morning and the big site visit and promotion for St Andrews Beach with Tom Doak is at 12.00 -just 15 minutes down the road.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Portsea G.C. On the move??
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2002, 02:06:04 AM »
Mike told me about this last week - apparantly the land is spectacular but unsuitable for a golf course (despite what the article says).

To put it bluntly, from a golf perspective, the members would be absolutely stupid to take the offer and move.  However, the hint of money might convince them to do something tragic.

Mike doesn't agree, but I think that Portsea is the best course on the Peninsula.  It has no bad holes, and some screamers like 2, 5, 9, 13 and 16.  The course flows perfectly, and has a nice atmosphere to it.

I wonder what course designer said that the new site could be one of the top five links courses in the country?

Lets hope that the members see some sense and vote down this proposal.  It would be such a shame to lose one of our better courses in the name of development.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Portsea G.C. On the move??
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2002, 02:09:51 AM »
Mike,

Do you know if it an EGM to actually vote on the proposal, or is it just an information session?

I'd imagine that the residents of Portsea would be concerned about this news: good land in that area is so tightly held.  Hundred of blocks being released on the market would likely devalue the homes of existing residents.  Shane_g might be able to tell us more about this.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:07 PM by -1 »

Mike Clayton

Re: Portsea G.C. On the move??
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2002, 02:12:39 AM »
Nic
The St Andrews Beach address is 265 Sandy Rd and all the GCA guys in Melbourne would be welcome.
Just bring your cheque books!

The thing I really hate is the attempt to sell the Portsea proposal on the basis of 'the great views'
Portsea already has some of the best views in the game.
Plus one of the selling points the developer is promising is 'a world class designer' for the new course.
The last world class designer we had in Australia was Mackenzie and we have tried a few since who havn't exactly measured up.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Portsea G.C. On the move??
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2002, 02:15:13 AM »
Mike,

If Portsea (unfortunately) decide to relocate, will yourself and Tom try and get the job?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

MikeClayton

Re: Portsea G.C. On the move??
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2002, 02:19:24 AM »
Chris
Sunday is only an information meeting so nothing will be decided then.

Does anyone in America have any information on clubs who have tried similar moves ?
I spoke to Tom Doak about it last week and his view was that he knew of 5 clubs who had tried it and in each instance it had been a disaster
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

NicP

Re: Portsea G.C. On the move??
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2002, 02:24:18 AM »
Mike,

       Thanks for the info and common sense approach. I nearly chocked on my orange juice when I read the article, however as we have discussed before not everyone who makes the decisions has common sense. Let's just hope Kenny Manders and the directors don't just see $$$.

Chris,

        Can't go all out and say it's the best on the Penninsula but it's certainly the most enjoyable experience down there. I have been to the Army base a few times, my dad and uncle did there Officer Training their in the 70's, for a look and from what I ahve seen (not sure it's the exact some land you looked at) it is spectacular but as for a "links" course??? Maybe the H.S. should speak to Mike about Links, Dunes and Clifftop course!



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Portsea G.C. On the move??
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2002, 02:28:50 AM »
I wonder if the members realise how good their golf course really is.  I suspect not.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Portsea G.C. On the move??
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2002, 02:32:59 AM »
*
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:07 PM by -1 »

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Portsea G.C. On the move??
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2002, 02:36:08 AM »
Nic,

If I had the choice of playing any course currently open in that area, I'd choose Portsea.  That does it for me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Portsea G.C. On the move??
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2002, 02:38:11 AM »
Mike et al.

If Portsea didnt relocate would there be any other clubs with high land value but an inferior course that may be tempted to move?

I would imagine that the logistics of moving a club to the penninsula would be not much worse than moving a club to the sandbelt in the early 1900s.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Portsea G.C. On the move??
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2002, 02:43:01 AM »
If Portsea move, based on the premise that their golf course doesn't justify the value of their land, where does that leave a club like Royal Sydney?  (Although I'm of the belief that they own their land.

This issue does show us how golf courses aren't the most efficient use of land economically - hundreds of acres in a prestigious location will always be threatened if it is Crown Land.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:09 PM by -1 »

Mike Clayton

Re: Portsea G.C. On the move??
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2002, 02:46:55 AM »
Ironically one of the developers mentioned is a member at Sorrento -a course few think is the equal of Portsea-yet there is no suggestion of selling Sorrento.
The members there would be horrified at such a suggestion.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Portsea G.C. On the move??
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2002, 02:55:34 AM »
Chris,

If Lindsay was in on it, it sure would be cheap to aquire the land.  He would just need to buy a small block of land at the top of the hill and then put fences all the way down to the low tide mark.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Portsea G.C. On the move??
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2002, 03:11:20 AM »
.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:09 PM by -1 »

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Portsea G.C. On the move??
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2002, 03:18:43 AM »
Chris,

I really hope Mr Fox does not have time to have an interest in Golf Course architecture websites.  We wouldnt want you to be expelled from your school AND your Golf Club.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Portsea G.C. On the move??
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2002, 03:37:27 AM »
.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:09 PM by -1 »

MikeClayton

Re: Portsea G.C. On the move??
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2002, 03:47:29 AM »
Chris
They should expell you now before you get old enough to get on the committeee and set about 'making your mark' on the course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Justin_Ryan

Re: Portsea G.C. On the move??
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2002, 04:51:03 AM »
I would be 100% certain that the club won't go, and anyone else trying to build a course on the defence land would in all likelihood struggle to make a return (on the golf course, not any land sales).  Chris is right when he says that Portsea is the best course on the Peninsula, and I doubt the members would be insane enough to sell it for housing in return for what would be most likely a long, boring piece of junk designed by some big name designer.  

Chris
They could expel you from Commonwealth for your constant swearing.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Danny Goss

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Portsea G.C. On the move??
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2002, 05:37:47 AM »
Chris,

I thought you didnt attend school judging by the amount of time spent here on GCA   ;D  ........or are you logging on in the library at lunch time??
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Portsea G.C. On the move??
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2002, 05:52:14 AM »
Danny:
Year 12 is sensational, because I have three days a week where I get home at lunchtime.  

I used to occasionally access GCA during study (!) periods at school, but the IT guy blocked this site because it isn't curriculum based, so I get an inappropriate (read:offensive) content message whenever I try and log on.

Mike:
My mark on the course would involve fixing up the bunkers (links-style pots with grass on the faces), improving the greens (nice and flat to allow for more pin positions), and adding some water hazards (how good would 16 be with another lateral hazard on the right side, to stop the stupid concept of a decision from the tee).  A waterfall feature to hit over on 15 would improve the architecture of the hole immensly.

Justin:
If I'm expelled from CGC for swearing, then the National should do the same for you.  However, they never would, because it would mean there being no charismatic members left.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Shane Gurnett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Portsea G.C. On the move??
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2002, 06:16:31 AM »
Boys

It wont happen. One of the reasons why is that the planning restrictions on the Peninsula are very stringent, and with all the adjoining owners likley to object to anything that is perceived to devalue their properties (even though in reality it wont make any differnece) it would prove to be a nightmare. Its not a simply case of putting up the for sale sign on the Portsea GC gate and wheeling in the highest bidder. There would need to be a full environmental plan done in additional to a detailed development/master plan which will take a long, long time. The dissenting objectors, many of which will be elderley, members of the club, and live close to the existing course will make it nigh on impossible to sell the course quickly and get an acceptable return. This, coupled with the need to get the staging right (you'll need to have the new club open before the old one closes) makes it a tough call.

I've been involved in a few development deals on the Peninsula, and its a tough place to do business. The stuff that the locals will object to, and why, is at times just unbelievable. They can chew through your holding costs very, very quickly. Any developer taking on the existing site will factor in a lot of fat into the proposal, which means they pay less for the site.

Chris, the easiest way to get kicked out of CGC is to keep haning around with me! Remember, its not what you do or did, its what they want to believe that you did that gets you in to strife.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Portsea G.C. On the move??
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2002, 06:24:09 AM »
Well Shane, if what you're saying is accurate, thats very reassuring.  Lets hope its true!

I'm still waiting for someone to have a word in my ear: "might be wise to avoid that Gurnett fellow, he's trouble"

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Shane Gurnett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Portsea G.C. On the move??
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2002, 06:27:36 AM »
Chris. I'll have to pay that one.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:09 PM by -1 »