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[John Kavanaugh]

Norwood Hills is the only course that I can recall playing.  I am kinda proud of joining the place before I ever hit a single shot on property now that I find out it is so well regarded in the Stiles book.  I had never even heard of Stiles at the time and am interested in what type of discussions are possible on this board.  One note that disturbs me is the Cornell connection of his sometime partner Van Kleek.

[RJ_Daley]

I doubt I'll be able to discuss with familiarity or insight of playing any courses by Stiles given I've never been to one.  But, upon arrival yesterday of Labbance and Mendik's book, it looks like there is a great body of work there to pick from.  I have only flipped a few pages so far, but the book looks to be an excellent compilation with great drawings and photos.  I suppose from a fast look, there might be many courses that have been tweaked, remodelled and such, although I don't know, yet.  It looks like a body of work of good old fashion solid golf courses, across beautiful meadow and woodlands. 

It appears that with all the courses he had done, a person interested in the history of GCA must/ought to seek them out for experience and insight as another step from the begining of works of modern day ASGCA founders and how they evolved into today's works. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Isn't it amazing how the legacy of an architect can be based on how many of his courses held majors.  Architecturally I doubt Ross had anything on Stiles yet history holds Ross in higher esteem perhaps because of who played his courses and not how his courses played.

[Mike_Cirba]

John,

I'm prepared to discuss Taconic and Brigantine.   I am ashamed to say I'm not prepped to discuss Wildwood, as it's only 2 hours from me and I've not played there.   

I wish I were prepared to discuss his other courses in New England, particularly the ones in NH, VT, and ME, at least from the wonderful pics in the book. 

Rutland is a course in VT I've heard wonderful things about, and I'm still hoping to get there someday.

[Rich Goodale]

I can discuss Woods Hole and maybe a few others in Mass. if I can remember them.

[Brad Tufts]

I'm plowing through this book, as I'm poised to tackle the courses section.

I've have played a good # of them as well, including Rutland CC, which, while only 6100 par 70, is a fantastic place to play.

One curious omission in the book, the NLE nine at my home course of Tedesco was a Stiles design, and the current 14 and 15th holes are still from that nine.  I checked the index when I got the book, and nary a mention.  I believe our club has a copy of his plans, with his company block and all.

I'm willing to give a rundown on anything anyone wants to know about the New England ones I've been to...

[Ryan_Simper]

Taconic is the only one I can speak about in any detail design-wise, and I maintain that setting aside tradition, aura, history, and the like, I'd probably choose to play the golf course at Taconic more times out of 10 than the members 18 at The Country Club.

[Michael Moore]

I may actually be able to go toe-to-toe with my trusty intern Bradford here. I would be happy to discuss

North Haven
Wilson Lake
Wawenock
Brunswick
Bath
Boothbay Harbor
Rockland
Riverside
Prouts Neck
Barre
Laconia
Pine Brook
Nehoiden
Taconic
Wahconah
Cranwell

HIT LIST
Woods Hole
Haverhill
Oak Hill
Thorny Lea

Stiles left one hell of a legacy in Maine. He is buried here in Portland and some day I will dork out and pay a visit . . .

[Ray Richard]

Thorny-Lea in Brockton Ma. I caddied there two clubhouses ago.

 It's a fine layout that hasn't been tweaked too much; the first hole was originally a dog-leg left and it was straightened out in the 70's, and a par three centerline was changed on the front side, but the hole can be played as originally constructed.

It's been the home of many hotshot players in Massachusetts and its always stood up to the  test, although I saw Paul Harney shoot a 64 back in the 1960's.

 Also enjoy Waweneck in the Pemaquid region of Maine although they filled in my favorite bunker last year.

[mike_malone]

 I enjoyed Wildwood because of the interesting variety at the green. Some have slopes from front to back, others have random buildups at the edges, different angling, as well. The par five that runs out to the bay is the highlight (once they remove the trees at the dogleg!). I thought that Atlantic City gets the nod for a bayside course because it has more frontage on the water. But Wildwood is fun. Mike, I have a good friend there.

[Tom_Doak]

I can only discuss Taconic.

Is there an acknowledged expert at restoring Stiles courses yet?  Perhaps there is a market opportunity for some of the architects who were lamenting that they are never considered for consulting opportunities ...

[Billsteele]

I think I go three deep (four if you count both sides of Norwood Hills):
1. Norwood Hills (with the originator of this thread)
2. Taconic
3. Woods Hole

I would gladly play each of these any day of the week. All of them are solid and fun.

JK-Don't forget that Norwood Hills hosted a major. The winner was a fairly good player as I recall...Hogan.

[Mike_Cirba]

mayday,

Let's get out there sometime.   If it's as much fun as Brigantine, it'll definitely be worth the drive.

[mike_malone]

 I have to get to Brigantine; that's a hole in my resume.

[michael j fay]

Taconic, Rutland and Nahua in that order but I feel the best work of Stiles and Van Kleek I have seen is the front side of Waconah.

While the Taconic course is top ten in New England in my opinion, I thought the front side and the routing of the back side of Waconah was ingenious.

[John Kavanaugh]

Michael,

Do you have a copy of the Stiles book?  If not send me an address and I will shoot you out one.

[Kyle Harris]

Lekarica/Highland Park in Lake Wales, FL. Still there... needs love.

[michael j fay]

John:

I have a copy. Thank you.

It is an extremely well done book, the research is yeoman and the result is fantastic. A;ll kudos to Labbance and Mendik for their efforts.

MJFay

[Mike Sweeney]

One note that disturbs me is the Cornell connection of his sometime partner Van Kleek.

Other than taking a shot at Doakey, what is the problem? No RTJ love, jeez you spend too much time here.

I can add Mink Meadows on Martha's Vineyard in addition to some of the above. To answer Tom Doak, I think they had Ron Pritchard come in to redo the 9 hole course.

Taconic is head and shoulders above over Wildwood (NJ) or the sentimental favorite from the Maine Island tour, North Haven. Not a huge fan of Laconia (NH).

Has anyone played Brattleboro? I will be near there in late June and thought I might try it.

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,

Were you surprised at the tone of the Taconic review?  Did your sister consider Williams over St. Mary's?

[Buck Wolter]

John-
I'd be interested on your view of the East Course versus the West at Norwood. I seem to remember you really enjoying the East which is usually pooh poohed by the members as sort of the 'family' course.

Buck

[John Kavanaugh]

The East is my favorite at only 6000 yds.  I just love short par 4's and blind shots.  I am currently tending to my wife and will report in further detail when back at work.

[John Kavanaugh]

Here is a link to the East score card.  You gotta love 7 straight short par 4's.  As soon as you get done with one you have another.  http://www.norwoodhills.com/Home.aspx?ContentID=52

[Michael Moore]

Michael,

Do you have a copy of the Stiles book?  If not send me an address and I will shoot you out one.

Shoot me a copy at 105 Osborne Avenue, South Portland, 04106. I will apply the savings to the Labbance fundraising tournament this summer.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike,

Were you surprised at the tone of the Taconic review?  Did your sister consider Williams over St. Mary's?

You lost me on this one, Ran's review?
He states:
_______________________________

Though Taconic is considered Stiles's finest work for good reason, it does lack cross bunkers. Undoubtedly influenced by Herbert Leed's masterpiece at the Myopia Hunt Club, Stiles did not hesitate to employ cross bunkers where possible, with the 18th at Thorny Lea GC being the best example. At Taconic, Stiles placed little directly between the golfer on the tee and the green in the distance. Rather, he let the rolling terrain create the need for accurate driving. Hence, the latin phrase on the front of the scorecard which translates to 'safer from the middle.'

______________________________

Ran really is good at this. It is only when I read this after my round that I thought what Taconic was missing that could make it iconic. I really like the lower key nature of all these Stiles courses.

FYI, the nuns at Merion Mercy Academy in the 70's did not expose their girls to much beyond the standard Catholic schools and of course the Jesuits were often seen as barely Catholic.

PS. Still waiting on the Cornell issue.

[Michael Moore]

You want cross bunkers, you got 'em.

http://www.taconicgolf.com/CourseMasterPlan/index.htm

The Hanse master plan is a delight to read - very plain in that Elements of Style way, and very thorough.

[John Kavanaugh]

Michael and Mike,

I figured you guys had already seen the below from the first Stiles thread and ordered your books.  Here is a discription and a link on where to purchase.  The BBGE has already agreed to donate a round for 3 people with me at Norwood for the upcoming auction.  I only offered to send Mr. Fay a copy out of respect for his work at Donald Ross.

From the Stiles thread now on page 2.

I just found out a book has been produced about Wayne Stiles. I think the authors are known to some on this site, Bob Labbance and Kevin Mendik. Through the generosity of co-author Kevin Mendik all proceeds from the sale of the book go to a college fund for the children of co-author Bob Labbance who has been diagnosed with ALS.
Available at: http://www.waynestilessociety.com/book

[Mike Sweeney]

You want cross bunkers, you got 'em.

http://www.taconicgolf.com/CourseMasterPlan/index.htm

The Hanse master plan is a delight to read - very plain in that Elements of Style way, and very thorough.

Time for Mike Keiser to step to the plate and fund that plan!

Edit - Oops, Mike K went to Amherst.

[Willie_Dow]

Being a graduate from Vermont Academy, and visiting there for my 60th reunion, we played Hooper Golf Club in Walpole, New Hampshire, just across the river from Bellows Falls, Vt.

It is a wonderful nine holer, and beautifully described in "The Life and Work of Wayne Stiles" pg 189-191. 

My chat with family chaperons of the course indicated a strong desire to keep everything as is, including the "warts" created when the blasting was needed to get the rocks out of the fairways.

[TEPaul]

All I know of Stiles is that in 1947 he recommended to my club (Ross 1916) that all Ross' top-shot bunkers on the course be removed and that the club did that as per his recommendation.

He also recommended that a bunker be placed right greenside on our #6 which has water all along the front and all along the left side. Stiles' rationale for recommending that right greenside bunker was that it would somewhat balance out penalty on the right side with the highly penal left side (due to the water).

I've always felt that is probably just about the opposite from what Ross apparently intended on that hole. I also feel that recommendation is basically just about the opposite of good risk/reward strategic balance---eg highly penal left side and bailout safe area on the right (as Ross designed the hole).

Not to mention the fact that the Stiles bunker on that hole does not drain at all well because the water level in its area is very close to the bunker base. Ross apparently understood that too when he built the hole with no bunkers and just some mounds on the right removed from the green.

But other than a bunch of seeming mistakes like that maybe Wayne Stiles was a helluva architect. 

[Willie_Dow]

Tom - I always liked that bunker to the right side of #6.  Was it not an elevated bunker at one time, well above green level, making for a difficult down slope bunker shot to a falling away green ?

[TEPaul]

"Was it not an elevated bunker at one time, well above green level, making for a difficult down slope bunker shot to a falling away green ?"

Bill:

As long as I've been there it hasn't been elevated although it probably should be seeing as how high the water table is around it. That green has a lot of contour in it particularly in the back half but I wouldn't say it's a fall away shot from that bunker. Of course one does have to worry about hitting a bunker shot too far as the pond is behind any shot from that bunker.

Ross designed that hole with a small flat spot in the position of that Stiles' bunker and before the mounds apparently as something of a bail-out right safety option against dealing with the pond on the left. I sort of recall that the bunker was going to be removed in the restoration but I think we just forgot to do it. 

[Willie_Dow]

Stiles had a lot of "quirky" bunkering at Hooper Golf Club, some were raised as I described regarding #6 at Gulph Mills.  His design work at Gulph Mills, in 1940, was his last known - he prepared a 9-page report - and I guess that is what you are referring to, eh Tom ??

It was interesting to read that Stiles was chosen over Ross and Flynn in 1932 to design Putterham Meadows Golf Club, next to The Country Club, for the town of Brookline, MA.

[john_foley]

Got the book over the weekend and loved it. Suprised about the number of courses and geographic disparity of his work.

How about Prout's Neck??

I know that it's been touched upon here in the past, but from what I remember the dunes holes we're very good.

Based upon all the glowing responses from Taconic, it looks like a definite must play this summer. I may have been there years ago, pre-GCA fanatacisn, but definetly want to get back.

[Willie_Dow]

M J Fay - At dinner last night I showed the Wahconah article to John Kittridge, Board Chairman at Crane Paper Co., and he was very impressed with the article.
He did mention that although Frederick G. Crane, Jr. donated the land for the 9 holes Stiles laid out, he was not the "head" of the Crane Paper Co. at that time.