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Gary Daughters

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Beauty
« on: March 04, 2008, 03:39:18 PM »

As we view it individually, is it not the ultimate arbiter?

THE NEXT SEVEN:  Alfred E. Tupp Holmes Municipal Golf Course, Willi Plett's Sportspark and Driving Range, Peachtree, Par 56, Browns Mill, Cross Creek, Piedmont Driving Club

David_Tepper

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Re: Beauty
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2008, 03:56:18 PM »
I know this is not "guess that hole," but it sure looks like Foxy (#14) at RDGC. ;)

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Beauty
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2008, 03:58:43 PM »
Well, its something that golfers of all handicaps can enjoy.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Gary Daughters

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Re: Beauty
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2008, 04:12:26 PM »

Jeff,

Admit you're an artist
THE NEXT SEVEN:  Alfred E. Tupp Holmes Municipal Golf Course, Willi Plett's Sportspark and Driving Range, Peachtree, Par 56, Browns Mill, Cross Creek, Piedmont Driving Club

wsmorrison

Re: Beauty
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2008, 06:26:47 PM »
That is a pretty setting, Gary.  But I thought this was going to be about the 13th hole at The Country Club in Brookline (Composite).  ;)  It is called "Beauty," and it is no wonder.


Peter Pallotta

Re: Beauty
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2008, 07:42:48 PM »
Gary, Wayne - thanks. What a game, huh?

I hope someone like Mark Bourgeois posts (or even Mark himself). He'd know the proper use of words like scale and balance and proportion as it relates to a sense of beauty.

I'd just add an obvious thought: that our sense of scale and proportion etc doesn't limit itself (and can't be limited to) the field of play; it includes everything the eyes sees, the surrounds and the site as a whole and, I'd say, probably a lot more of the countryside for miles around than we might be conscious of....with the field of play fitting into THAT.

Which is to say, while many courses strike me as pretty, fewer strike me as beautiful; maybe the ones that do satisfy both a conscious and unconscious sense of "rightness".         

Peter
« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 10:00:31 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Gary Daughters

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Re: Beauty
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2008, 08:48:33 AM »
Peter,

I was trying to explain "art" to my 7-year old the other day and finally hit upon something to the effect of a work that prompts us look at the world differently and opens up possibilities we hadn't noticed before.  I think anyone who has had one of those rare transcendental moments on a golf course can relate that back.

And I'm with you.. it goes beyond "pretty."  That distinction lies at the bottom of much that be we bat around here.  Isn't that where the Fazio-phobes say he falls short?

Surely others have stood before a landscape painting and longed to actually get inside the thing.  That's one of the cool things about a "beautiful" golf course.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2008, 09:34:55 AM by Gary Daughters »
THE NEXT SEVEN:  Alfred E. Tupp Holmes Municipal Golf Course, Willi Plett's Sportspark and Driving Range, Peachtree, Par 56, Browns Mill, Cross Creek, Piedmont Driving Club

Peter Pallotta

Re: Beauty
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2008, 10:08:27 AM »
Gary -

I think you're very right that the distinction gets to much of what we bat around here. I've tried to understand why some courses just don't do it for me in terms of aesthetics, and found that focusing on the "particulars" of a given golf course doesn't explain enough. 

For me, most golf courses that are built on flat sites (in areas that are flattish for miles around) can at best be pretty, as no amount of earth-moving or natural-looking bunkers can give them the sense of rightness that I'm talking about and that I think beauty entails. In fact, the more earth-moving and attempts at a natural look that goes on, the further they move away from beauty (in the sense of the word that, I think, we're both using.)  The human eye and the unconscious mind simply can't find an overall sense of balance and proportion in the juxtaposition.  What's left is a surface prettiness. That's nothing to shake a stick at, and I'm appreciative of that prettiness wherever I see it; but we're talking about something else/more here.  

I say "most" courses built on flattish sites strike me that way because there are exceptions. Those exceptions -- including some of the lesser known British courses that Sean Arble posts on -- come about because the designers seemed to have made a virtue out of necessity, i.e. they embraced instead of denying or despising the flatness of the surrounding countryside and the site itself, and thus created golf courses that seem comfortable in their own skins, at peace with themselves, and as quiet and subtle as the land itself.  And when that overall scale and balance is right, I find that the particulars like bunker shapes/styles or green contours don’t matter as much to me, i.e. I’ve stopped focusing on what’s pretty because I sense instead something that’s beautiful.   

I take it that the consensus opinion is that it's very hard to make a great golf course out of a flat site, and that developers and the general golfing public aren't keen on the idea anyway. I guess that's probably true. And I guess that what's also true is that a sense of beauty is more subtle -- and individualistic -- than a sense of what's pretty. But all that said, I think that in terms of new courses, it would take a brave (and/or financially secure) designer who was willing to risk being “boring” and creating a “boring” course to let a flat site stand a chance and become what it was intended to be…and then to see what kind of beauty might emerge.

All that said, Gary, I'll still be writing to you with questions in 5 years or so when my (then) 7 year old also wants to know about "art".  :)
 
Peter
« Last Edit: March 05, 2008, 10:39:37 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Sean_A

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Re: Beauty
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2008, 10:41:25 AM »
Gary -

I think you're very right that the distinction gets to much of what we bat around here. I've tried to understand why some courses just don't do it for me in terms of aesthetics, and found that focusing on the "particulars" of a given golf course doesn't explain enough. 

For me, most golf courses that are built on flat sites (in areas that are flattish for miles around) can at best be pretty, as no amount of earth-moving or natural-looking bunkers can give them the sense of rightness that I'm talking about and that I think beauty entails. In fact, the more earth-moving and attempts at a natural look that goes on, the further they move away from beauty (in the sense of the word that, I think, we're both using.)  The human eye and the unconscious mind simply can't find an overall sense of balance and proportion in the juxtaposition.  What's left is a surface prettiness. That's nothing to shake a stick at, and I'm appreciative of that prettiness wherever I see it; but we're talking about something else/more here. 

I say "most" courses built on flattish sites strike me that way because there are exceptions. Those exceptions -- including some of the lesser known British courses that Sean Arble posts on -- come about because the designers seemed to have made a virtue out of necessity, i.e. they embraced instead of denying or despising the flatness of the surrounding countryside and the site itself, and thus created golf courses that seem comfortable in their own skins, at peace with themselves, and as quiet and subtle as the land itself.  And when that overall scale and balance is right, I find that the particulars like bunker shapes/styles or green contours don’t matter as much to me, i.e. I’ve stopped focusing on what’s pretty because I sense instead something that’s beautiful.   

I take it that the consensus opinion is that it's very hard to make a great golf course out of a flat site, and that developers and the general golfing public aren't keen on the idea anyway. I guess that's probably true. And I guess that what's also true is that a sense of beauty is more subtle -- and individualistic -- than a sense of what's pretty. But all that said, I think that in terms of new courses, it would take a brave (and/or financially secure) designer who was willing to risk being “boring” and creating a “boring” course to let a flat site stand a chance and become what it what intended to be…and then to see what kind of beauty might emerge.

All that said, Gary, I'll still be writing to you with questions in 5 years or so when my (then) 7 year old also wants to know about "art".  :)
 
Peter


Peter

I think this is a difficult area for many archies.  I sense that many golfers aren't terribly interested in subtle land movement and how man made features interact with these more subtle features.  Perhaps many golfers want the pretty look (and from a certain perspective - why not?) which acts more as a road map for the course.  How often do you hear/read "its all there in front of you"?  It is my belief that this sort of design is part and parcel of the desire to make golf course features pretty.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Peter Pallotta

Re: Beauty
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2008, 10:48:10 AM »
Sean - thanks. I'd never thought of that before, but of course you're right i.e. that the roadmap/prescription approach is tied very closely to those features/design approaches that tend towards the "pretty".  And yes, from a certain perspective, why not? But that's a little easier for you to say, given the moveable feast that is your "Less is More Minor Tour".  :)
Peter

Sean_A

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Re: Beauty
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2008, 11:07:03 AM »
Sean - thanks. I'd never thought of that before, but of course you're right i.e. that the roadmap/prescription approach is tied very closely to those features/design approaches that tend towards the "pretty".  And yes, from a certain perspective, why not? But that's a little easier for you to say, given the moveable feast that is your "Less is More Minor Tour".  :)
Peter

Peter

I can't say that I am a fan of this pretty road map style of architecture, but I am sure it has as much to do with not experiencing some of the better courses of this genre as an aesthetic objection.  It seems to me that the courses I really enjoy integrate the local vegetation better with the man made elements of the design.  For instance, I often see stark contrasts in the transition areas between the man made elements of a course and the natural elements.  It is details such as this which make road map courses really stand out as distasteful.  I realize that we all have exceptions to even our own dogmas and I am certainly no different, but I would like to play more of these courses which do turn my head for different reasons.   

I don't know when or how I started to pay attention to this sort of stuff, but now it really bothers me to see what I consider to be sloppy finish work.  But I am sure it is a problem with me because most golfers seem to want to have either/or situations in golf no matter if we are talking about rules, design, conditions etc.  I just never think of golf as an either/or game so why should the design of courses be as such?

Ciao     
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Dan Kelly

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Re: Beauty
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2008, 11:23:22 AM »
Beauty = truth.

All I know.

All I need to know.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Joe Hancock

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Re: Beauty
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2008, 11:45:15 AM »
Beauty = truth.

All I know.

All I need to know.

Pass the shoehorn....I need to make a little room for comedy.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

TEPaul

Re: Beauty
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2008, 12:16:39 PM »
Gary:

Ever since yesterday I can't stop thinking about this thread. I want to respond but more than any other thread I've ever seen on here this one just keeps forcing me to wait and rethink---to rethink and wait.  ;)

TEPaul

Re: Beauty
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2008, 12:22:30 PM »
Gary:

When I do respond I very much want to coalesce it down to a word or a short phrase but so far I can't seem to get it right. The thing that keeps coming to me probably won't do and it doesn't even make sense to me anyway. For some odd reason at the moment it's "Rosebud".   ;)

Mark Pearce

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Re: Beauty
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2008, 12:28:18 PM »
No.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Dan Kelly

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Re: Beauty
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2008, 12:35:18 PM »
Beauty = truth.

All I know.

All I need to know.

Pass the shoehorn....I need to make a little room for comedy.

Joe

Joe -- That's what bunkers are for.

Dan
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

TEPaul

Re: Beauty
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2008, 12:45:17 PM »
Mark Pearce:

Your answer just blew me away.

No, what??

Frankly, I'm really pissed after hitting the dictionary and finding out that "arb" is not a verb or even a word.

On the other hand, after seeing Gone With The Wind about fifty times I do realize that "beaut" is a real word, at least it was in Atlanta around the Civil War. Do you remember when Scarlett's little black maid kept running a brush through Scarlett's long beautiful hair while singing "BEAUTIFUL DREAMER" to every flowing stroke? Then her little black maid tried to do the same thing with a brush through her own hair but it kept getting stuck and all she could sing was "Beaut, Beaut, BEAUT."
« Last Edit: March 05, 2008, 12:48:26 PM by TEPaul »

George Pazin

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Re: Beauty
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2008, 12:59:06 PM »
Beauty strikes me as far too personal to be the ultimate arbiter.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Norbert P

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Re: Beauty
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2008, 01:02:43 PM »
 From PhilosphyPages.com . . .

 beauty

      The characteristic feature of things that arouse pleasure or delight, especially to the senses of a human observer. Thus, "beauty" is the most general term of aesthetic appreciation. Whether judgments about beauty are objective or subjective has been a matter of serious philosophical dispute.

*******************************

For me, the statement:  ". . . beauty is the most general term of aesthetic appreciation."   says much about how we enter into appreciation.  Do we stop at beauty or do we transcend into the surreal, sublime, etc. Even Tom Paul, seemingly stupefied!  but methinks he knows how important but convoluted the question is; how limiting the word is, i.e.; when one sees beauty does the  object send us on a journey to understand why? Then we have to leave the word beauty behind lest we describe beauty and not the object. It's an important "gateway" question that leads us to harder questions. Beware! the brain synapses may get caught in an inescapable loop of a big ball of rusty barbed wire.  Like adding too many ingredients into an omelette and resulting in a taste of gray. How do we put the sublime into words of impression, expression or explanation?

". . . beauty is the most general term of aesthetic appreciation."

 

« Last Edit: March 05, 2008, 04:53:57 PM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Mark Pearce

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Re: Beauty
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2008, 01:10:52 PM »
Oh dear.  I suspect this answer may seem rather prosaic.  All the more so for my admission that I have never seen Gone with the Wind.

No, beauty is not the ultimate arbiter, whether as we see it individually or otherwise.  First (and pedantically) because an arbiter is, according to the Penguin English Dictionary (it's the only one I have to hand in the office, obviously the Oxford would be better but I doubt it makes much difference) "a person or agency with absolute power of judging and determining".  How can beauty be a person or agency?  It certainly isn't capable of judging or determining.

But that isn't what Gary meant.  I assume he meant to ask whether beauty was the ultimately important factor in judging something.  Unfortunately hsis post does not tell us what it is that beauty might be the "ultimate arbiter" of.  Since this is a Golf Course Architecture discussion group I'm going to take a plunge and assume he meant to ask whether beauty was the ultimately important factor in assessing golf course architecture.

Well, it clearly and obviously isn't.

One of the most beautiful spots I know (and not just on a golf course) is the 15th tee at Bamburgh Castle GC in Northumberland, England.  An hour's drive away is the first tee at Muirfield.  Muirfield is not a beautiful golf course.  Put a bag of clubs on my shoulders and where would I rather be?  Muirfield.  Every time.

Why?  Because it is a better golf course, with better architecture and on better land.  It just isn't beautiful.

I'm not saying beauty doesn't matter.  Seaton Carew is also a much better course than Bamburgh but on a grey day when the chemical industry is in full swing it isn't attractive (Tom Doak's wrong, though, I would never go so far as to say it's ugly).  Given ten rounds I'd have 6 at Seaton and 4 at Bamburgh, simply because of the beauty of Bamburgh.  Of course beauty can add to and enhance the experience of a golf course, it simply isn't the ultimate consideration.

I think sometimes we try to make golf course architecture more than it is.  Of course aesthetics matter a great deal in golf course design and great, beautiful natural sites can be truly beautiful but in the end its about design and about how the resulting course will play.  

p.s.  George would be right, too, if beauty were capable of being an arbiter.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Jerry Kluger

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Re: Beauty
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2008, 01:29:53 PM »
I don't know that you can appropriately use the work beautiful as synonymous with quality in art nor in golf course architecture.  There is much in the world of art that is viewed as good quality but it is not necessarily beautiful.  It could be imaginitive or interesting or innovative, etc., but not necessarily beautiful, although beauty can be a primary factor in judging a painting.  But one must keep in mind that a painting is far easier to create than a golf course, which in turn means that there are far more paintings than golf courses. Remember, a painting is created for the sole purpose of being viewed while a golf hole also has a ultilitarian purpose.

When I first look at a golf hole which I like my first reaction is not how beautiful it is but how cool it looks.  By that I mean how much fun it will be to play over and over again.  If an architect's first step in conceptualizing a hole on a particular piece of property is how does he maximize its beauty then I question if he is going to design the best hole for that property.

A golf hole is 3 dimensional while a photo is not, so a conclusion can be that a photo was created to maximize the beauty of a hole, while the hole itself was created to maximize its playability. 

Peter Pallotta

Re: Beauty
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2008, 01:46:12 PM »
Slag, Mark, Jerry - good posts.

Slag - Yes, as you say in a particularly nice section of your post, "...we have to leave the word beauty behind lest we describe beauty and not the object...". But that trap/temptation confronts us in trying to discuss any of the subjects/realities that are (or seem) important to us. Maybe the best way through in the end is to fall mute and silent in the face of pure experience. In fact, I think it might well be - but I'm not ready to go there just yet  ;D 

Jerry - I think I know what you mean by, and might even agree, that "If an architect's first step in conceptualizing a hole on a particular piece of property is how does he maximize its beauty then I question if he is going to design the best hole for that property."  But I think that the danger lies in the other direction, especially today, i.e. the danger lies in a continued pre-occupation with "shot testing" at the expense of beauty (in the widest sense of that term, as I've been trying to use it).  I think that every architecht who's ever lived knew and knows about shot testing and how to design for that mandate; but it's often at the expense of beauty. In short, I'm not sure  there's a strict dichotomy between the visuals and the playability, except maybe in the negative sense, i.e. if a course is merely pretty, it probably doesn't offer years' worth of golfing surprises, and its shot-testing demands are usually obvious and not all that fun/interesting.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 05, 2008, 01:51:37 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Kirk Gill

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Re: Beauty
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2008, 01:52:13 PM »
Beauty can't be the ultimate arbiter because it is so tied to an individual's experiences and judgements. Like George Pazin says!


A powerful factor, to be sure. But someone could certainly respond to Mark's post above and say that Muirfield is especially beautiful to them, simply because it's such a great course. Their personal aesthetic is tied in with the quality of the golf. Others will feel just like Mark does, and feel that aesthetic beauty is separate from the purpose of the thing being viewed.

I remember reading about some kind of poll that was conducted to find the most beautiful-sounding word in the English language. Diarrhea was near the top of that list........based just on the sound of the word, independent of its meaning............So that shows you what you might get if your notion of beauty gets TOO specific..........
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

TEPaul

Re: Beauty
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2008, 01:59:35 PM »
"First (and pedantically) because an arbiter is, according to the Penguin English Dictionary (it's the only one I have to hand in the office, obviously the Oxford would be better but I doubt it makes much difference)"


Mark:

I've found over the years that it's not a particularly good idea to depend on Penguins for words, not even English Penguins. However, when it comes to ambulation they should definitely be studied very carefully and in great depth!

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