News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Phil_the_Author

Calchavecchia on 15...
« on: March 02, 2008, 05:18:04 PM »
A question for the rules guys...

When Calchavecchia picked up his ball from the hazard on 15 and just threw the ball in the water without even looking at it or showing it to his playing partner, wasn't he guilty of illegally taking his ball out of play? If so, shouldn't there be an additional penalty and will he not be DQ'd for signing an incorrect scorecard if he doesn't?

Jeff Loh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calchavecchia on 15...
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2008, 05:30:15 PM »
Agreed with that. Bad job by NBC. NO explanation at all. He was allowed to throw the ball away but why did he get to drop CLOSER to the hole and have a put for bogey? Shouldn't he have dropped sideways in the rough (no closer to the hole?) Really bad job of (not) explaining. Miller, Hicks et all should be embarassed.....

JohnH

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calchavecchia on 15...
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2008, 06:04:55 PM »
Don't rely on me 100%, but I believe if a ball is deemed unplayable in a hazard you are allowed to pick it up and clean it before dropping, or substitute it.  I didn't see it happen...

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calchavecchia on 15...
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2008, 06:26:33 PM »
By the way, what about those spin-outs ?  It looked like the cups were too close to the surface.

Just my view of the white cups on TV.  What is the specification as to how close to the green surface should the cup be placed ?

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calchavecchia on 15...
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2008, 07:41:22 PM »
A question for the rules guys...

When Calchavecchia picked up his ball from the hazard on 15 and just threw the ball in the water without even looking at it or showing it to his playing partner, wasn't he guilty of illegally taking his ball out of play? If so, shouldn't there be an additional penalty and will he not be DQ'd for signing an incorrect scorecard if he doesn't?

No.  Since his ball was in the hazard (and it clearly was his ball), Rule 26 allowed him to substitute a ball if he chooses to.  When proceeding under penalty under 26, the rule states you must drop "a" ball not "the" ball when putting it back into play under penalty.

You are correct that his ball was in play even in the hazard but it was out of play when he lifted it and when he put a new ball into play he was allowed to substitute a ball which he did.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2008, 07:55:27 PM by Chris Cupit »

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calchavecchia on 15...
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2008, 07:45:56 PM »
Don't rely on me 100%, but I believe if a ball is deemed unplayable in a hazard you are allowed to pick it up and clean it before dropping, or substitute it.  I didn't see it happen...

John,

You are kinda correct although technically you can declare a ball unplayable anywhere on the golf course except in a water hazard.  He was simply proceeding under 26-1 which does allow substitution.  Of course, he could have picked up the original, cleaned it and dropped it if he wished.  I don't think he felt to good about that ball anymore though. ;)

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calchavecchia on 15...
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2008, 07:55:00 PM »
Agreed with that. Bad job by NBC. NO explanation at all. He was allowed to throw the ball away but why did he get to drop CLOSER to the hole and have a put for bogey? Shouldn't he have dropped sideways in the rough (no closer to the hole?) Really bad job of (not) explaining. Miller, Hicks et all should be embarassed.....

The hazard was marked lateral (red).  As long as he goes no closer to the hole, he may drop within two club lenghts of where his ball last crossed the margin of the hazard. 

This is a rare instance where a player can drop onto a green.  Given the angles involved I think he proceeded correctly.  I am sure he had a rules official right there assisting him and again, with the diagonal nature of the hole, I think it was entirely possible to drop correctly and have a putt.


Tim MacEachern

Re: Calchavecchia on 15...
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2008, 08:21:01 PM »
I believe this rule has changed in 2008.  Previously, it was unclear whether you had to use the same ball, assuming you retrieved it.  In the 2008/2009 rules you are explicitly allowed to substitute a ball in this situation:
"When proceeding under this Rule, the player may lift and clean his ball or substitute a ball."

Rule 26.1 at http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/rules_of_golf.html

The previous wording was: "The ball may be lifted and cleaned when proceeding under this Rule."

In the changes list (http://www.usga.org/news/2007/October/2007_79.html), this change is noted:
"Lost Ball -- Amended to clarify substituted ball issues and to include the concept of "stroke-and-distance" (see corresponding changes to Rules 18-1, 24-3, 25-1c, 26 and 27-1)."

Would have been a h*ll of a fight over it a couple of months ago.


Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calchavecchia on 15...
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2008, 09:03:04 PM »
I believe this rule has changed in 2008.  Previously, it was unclear whether you had to use the same ball, assuming you retrieved it.  In the 2008/2009 rules you are explicitly allowed to substitute a ball in this situation:
"When proceeding under this Rule, the player may lift and clean his ball or substitute a ball."

You have been allowed to substitute a ball in a hazard for as long as I can remember and certainly this is not new to 2008.  Just imagine the situation if his ball had rolled into the water and thirty feet down. 

You have to let a player substitute a ball when proceeding under 26-1 unless you want to outfit them with tanks and flippers!  ;D ;D

John Moore II

Re: Calchavecchia on 15...
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2008, 09:10:08 PM »
The change to the rules in 2008 is that you are penalized for playing a wrong ball out of a hazard when before you were not penalized for doing so. In the case today, he didn't have to actually pick the ball up, if it is in the hazard, and it is known the ball is in the hazard, you need not identify the ball. If you had to positively identify the ball in the hazard as yours, there would be legions of scuba divers on every hole to bring balls back to the surface in order to for the player to be certain that the ball is in fact his.

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calchavecchia on 15...
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2008, 09:13:04 PM »
The oldest book I have on hand is from 2002.

Rule 26-1

"If a ball is in or is lost in a water hazard (whether the balls lies in the water or not), the player may under penalty of one stroke:

      26-1a.  Play a ball.....
      26-1b.  Drop a ball......
      26-1c.  As an additional option...drop a ball....

Calcs ball was in the water hazard and under 26, he was allowed to substitute a ball for the original regardless of whether or not he found his original ball.  

Maybe JVB can tell us when/if substitution was ever prohibited when taking penalty relief from a water hazard.  

I think the rule allowing substitution has been around for a very long time.

John Moore II

Re: Calchavecchia on 15...
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2008, 09:55:25 PM »
Does no one else on here understand that once a ball has been declared in a hazard, it is no longer in play? Once its not in play, the player can do what he wants. Just see my last post as to why its not possible to play the same ball from the hazard.

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calchavecchia on 15...
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2008, 10:56:39 PM »
Does no one else on here understand that once a ball has been declared in a hazard, it is no longer in play? Once its not in play, the player can do what he wants. Just see my last post as to why its not possible to play the same ball from the hazard.

JKM,

That first statement is not correct. 

I hate to quote verbatim but..."A ball is in play as soon as a player has made a stroke on the teeing ground.  It remains in play until it is holed, except when it is lost, out of bounds or lifted, or another ball has been substituted whether or not the substitution is permitted; a ball so substituted becomes the ball in play."

That begs the question, "How is a ball lost?"  You CAN NOT "declare" a ball lost.  Again from the definitions:

"A ball is deemed “lost” if:
a.  It is not found or identified as his by the player within
five minutes after the player’s side or his or their caddies
have begun to search for it; or
b.  The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the
place where the original ball is likely to be or from a
point nearer the hole than that place (see Rule 27-2b); or
c.  The player has put another ball into play under penalty of
stroke and distance (see Rule 27-1a); or
d.  The player has put another ball into play because it is
known or virtually certain that the ball, which has not
been found, has been moved by an outside agency (see Rule
18-1), is in an obstruction (see Rule 24-3), is in an abnormal
ground condition (see Rule 25-1c) or is in a water hazard (see
Rule 26-1); or
e. The player has made a stroke at a substituted ball. "


So.....a ball hit into a water hazard is not lost until one of the above happens and none of those things include "declaring" it lost--the player must do something or not find it in 5 minutes.

If a player hit a ball in a water hazard he may "declare" that it's "a goner", "fish food", "lost in the hazard" or whatever and if five minutes is not up after he started looking and he has not done c. d. or e. (he is prohibited from b.) the ball is still "in play" and if found, he could try and hit it.

As a general rule the ball is "in play" more times than the player usually realizes!! :) 



JohnV

Re: Calchavecchia on 15...
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2008, 11:35:33 PM »
In 1891 the R&As rule read:

"If the ball lie or be lost in water the player may drop A ball under penalty of one stroke."

So, even as far back as that you could drop A ball, not THE ball.  And note, that was ANY water on the course including casual water.  Willie Park, Jr. noted that in 1896.  - Thank to Kenneth Chapman for this bit of history.

The ball is still in play until one of the following occurs:
A - it is holed
B - it is lost
C - it is out of bounds
D - it is lifted
E - Another ball has been substituted (even if substitution is not allowed)

So, until one of those things happens the ball in the hazard is in play.  It becomes lost when one of things Chris mentioned in the previous post.

As for dropping on the green, if you are taking a penalty (ie ball in hazard or ball unplayable) you can drop on the green. If it is a freedrop (unabashed plug for my blog) ;), the rule will say that the ball must first strike the part of the course from which it was lifted or something similar.  In those cases you can't drop it on the green.

« Last Edit: March 02, 2008, 11:55:04 PM by John Vander Borght »

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calchavecchia on 15...
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2008, 11:46:30 PM »
Thanks John.  I thought it might have been a while ago ;)  Hope the left coast is treating you well!  See you in Milwaukee I hope.  Nice website by the way. :)

JohnV

Re: Calchavecchia on 15...
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2008, 11:54:39 PM »
Thanks Chris.  I'm definitely looking forward to Milwaukee.

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calchavecchia on 15...
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2008, 07:08:41 AM »
I hope to see both of you in Milwaukee too.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calchavecchia on 15...
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2008, 08:43:25 AM »
I didn't see yesterday's telecast, but read in the paper this morning that Calc hit a ball out of a greenside bunker that ran across the green and wound up on a rock ledge.

Why couldn't he play the ball off the rock ledge?  Was it below the level of the green and there was no shot at all?

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calchavecchia on 15...
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2008, 09:02:13 AM »
The ball was in the hazard below the level of the green and wedged among some rocks but not in the water.  The only possible angle I saw for him to try a shot would have been into the water - he had to take a penalty and drop outside the hazard.  Of course, he could have gone back to the bunker but the  shape of the green allowed him to drop no closer to the hole on the green.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calchavecchia on 15...
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2008, 09:04:13 AM »
Thanks, that's what I figured.  "Rock ledge" conjured up the image of the rock ledge around the 17th green at Sawgrass.

Michael Powers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calchavecchia on 15...
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2008, 10:15:01 AM »
Of course there was no penalty as he was within the rules substituting a a ball.

The thing I couldn't get over was Miller, Maltby, Hicks, et al telling the viewing audience what a fine shot it was and how they couldn't believe that it went in the water.  Miller went so far as to guess that Calc got a pebble between the club and the ball and that's why it came out with no spin.  Why couldn't they accept that Calc hit a fat bunker shot and it went into the water.  Am I the only one who had this reaction?
HP

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Calchavecchia on 15...
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2008, 11:12:29 AM »
Does it matter that Calc uses the old Pine Eye 2 wedges - Donald was probably using the new Mizuno wedges.

Chris Moore

Re: Calchavecchia on 15...
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2008, 07:34:01 PM »
I love how Johnny Miller can see pebbles in a bunker on 15 from the booth on 18.  Seems like just last year Faldo called him out on the carpet for claiming to have seen a pebble interfere with a bunker shot. 

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back