Odd Lateral Hazard Rules Question

[Mark Manuel]

Playing Orange County National, Crooked Cat.  The place is bone dry and the hazards no longer have water in them, just shrubs.  Picture a fairway that used to have a lateral hazard on the right hand side.  The hazard is bowed in so that it leaves a semi-circle of fairway/rough.  Two stakes on the outside of the bow.  Someone in our foursome hits it through the bow and into the hazard.  They take their drop based on the two stakes, roughly 15-20 yards from the edge of the hazard saying that the stakes define the edge of the hazard since there was no line.  OK, I guess.  But then if there was water in there and not just shrubs anyone who sat in that bowed area and took a practice swing should be assessed a penalty stroke?  This doesn't make any sense.  Without a red line, what defines that hazard?  Is he right?

12th hole, if someone needs that info.

[Pete_Pittock]

Methinks they need to put in more stakes. It is not a unique situation and just allows someone to game the system.

[JohnV]

In the absence of a line, the stakes define the hazard.

Many clubs are very poorly marked.  Since this was the site of Q-School in December, I'm sure that it had good lines down at one time, but they haven't been refreshed.

If they don't want to maintain lines, they should get out there and put in a few more stakes as Peter said.

If there were no lines or stakes, the hazard would still be a hazard and the point where the ground breaks down to it would be the margin.  Sometimes that is a pretty vague demarcation so stakes and lines are definitely preferred.

[Mark Manuel]

Yeah, that is what I thought.  Now picture that second scenario in an event.  You can even put water in the hazard.  The person not in the water, but between that line of the stakes would be assessed a penalty stroke for each practice swing.  Probably oblivious to the entire deal.

Bad rule.  I am starting to buy into the recent thread on the rule book being bad.

You can argue that the course should be better staked.  But, a lateral water hazard that is jagged is always going to present this problem without a line.  And lines are not fun to put in place.

[JohnV]

Yeah, that is what I thought.  Now picture that second scenario in an event.  You can even put water in the hazard.  The person not in the water, but between that line of the stakes would be assessed a penalty stroke for each practice swing.  Probably oblivious to the entire deal.

Bad rule.  I am starting to buy into the recent thread on the rule book being bad.

You can argue that the course should be better staked.  But, a lateral water hazard that is jagged is always going to present this problem without a line.  And lines are not fun to put in place.

Actually the player would only be penalized 2 strokes for the practice swings, unless someone told him he couldn't do it and he did it again.  Decision 1-4/12 talks about multiple penalties.  Breaching one rule multiple times between two shots results in only one penalty.

The course should be better staked.  It is the responsibility of the Committee in charge of the event or the course to mark the course properly.  See Rule 33-2a.  Just because the ownership or the superintendent doesn't maintain the markings is no reason to blame the rules.

As someone who routinely marks courses, it isn't that hard to do and it doesn't take that much time that there is any excuse for not doing it properly.

[JSPayne]

Somewhat OT from this specific example, but since we're talking about staking and rules, I'm in need of a little advice if anyone has some.

I know we should rightly paint a line to define the hazard, and we try to once a month (at a cost of about $150 worth of paint and at least 3 hours labor time), but we have certain areas of our course, which is surrounded by houses, where people who walk their dogs allow the dogs to pull out the stakes to play fetch with. And obviously the owners never put them back. A line is the best answer, but does anyone have other ideas for stakes, or stake-like definition, that can be viewed more easily from a distance than a line, that would be.....shall I say, dog-proof?

I know stakes should be easy to remove and replace for golfers who may wish to play their ball as it lies should it lie near a stake. I'm more amused by this problem than anything, but would be interested to hear ideas.

[JohnV]

JSP,

One idea I've seen is to use Roundup to burn a line.  It lasts longer than paint and will be consistent.  You can even run paint down it whenever you really want to paint it.

As for visibility from a distance, there was a course in Oregon that didn't want stakes.  They planted some kind of large bull rushes or other water plant at the corner of each hazard.  It was pretty obvious that there was water there so the players would know to stay away.