[Patrick_Mucci]

David Stamm,

Do you think that either the 15th and/or 16th at CPC were inspired by the original ?

What original? Do you mean Raynors original plan at CPC?

NO,
The original Biarritz in France

[David Stamm]

David Stamm,

Do you think that either the 15th and/or 16th at CPC were inspired by the original ?

What original? Do you mean Raynors original plan at CPC?

NO,
The original Biarritz in France

  I don't recall AM ever mentioning the hole, but then it was in existence and then gone well before he began designing courses. I'm sure he had heard of it. Keep in mind that he originally wanted 16 to be a par 4 before Hollins convinced him otherwise. If the Biarritz did somehow inspire him, it would've been more likely on his mind on the 15th, if at all. But as I said, it's almost certain he never saw the hole in the first place.

[George_Bahto]

"The comment that the 18th at TOC inspired the configuration of the green on the Biarritz is an interesting comment.  Do you recall where you heard that ?"

Pat - that has been mu contenstion for years.

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

That's an interesting theory, one seemingly borne out by the terrain.

David Stamm,

I've often wondered if that story about Marion Hollins was true, especially in the context of the distance on that carry and the balls and equipment available circa 1927-1928.

When I first played CPC in 1975 I had to rip a driver to reach the green.
I doubt that shot would be possible with a ball and equipment from 1927-1928, hence, I don't believe the story.

[Jim Nugent]

David -

I would love to see anything people have, but my understanding is that there is little evidence about what the original Chasm Hole looked like. It didn't exist for very long.

Bob

If I understand the facts right...

*  CBM's first Biarritz hole was at Piping Rock.  Macdonald himself apparently gave it the name of Biarritz;

*  There is no chasm on that hole at PR;

*  The hole's outstanding feature is the swale in front of the green.

This makes me think the chasm hole in France had a similar green complex as the one at Piping Rock.  i.e. both had a swale in front of the green.  Otherwise, why would Macdonald name the hole at PR "Biarritz?" 

Also, at Piping Rock, the Biarritz green did not include the swale or front tier.  That suggest to me Macdonald did not base his Biarritz on N. Berwick's 16th.  On top of that, 16 at NB is a par 4 (or even 5 back in the day?).   If CBM had named the hole "Berwick" instead of "Biarritz", I'd have more confidence that 16 at NB was his model. 

Even though the chasm hole in Biarritz no longer exists, the land features are still there.  Could someone, if they wanted, take pictures, and then use photoshop to make some approximations of what the hole might have looked like? 

[TEPaul]

If C.B. Macdonald actually used the swale in front of biarritz greens as an architectural mimic of the carry over the Bay of Biscay at the original Chasm hole at Biarritz in France I think that probably proves once and for all just how much he was willing to stretch an architectural idea used elsewhere.

I remember being taught the traditional "Biarritz shot"  as a kid at Piping Rock. You were supposed to land a low trajectory shot on the front fairway approach and run it into and up through the swale and onto the green. I don't think that shot would work very well with the chasm formed by the Bay of Biscay between the tee and the green at the old biarritz hole in France! 

The truth is at Piping Rock Charlie built his first American biarritz green and called it the "Berwick" in honor of the 16th at NB but some of those francophiles at Piping Rock either misunderstood him or decided to call it the "Biarritz" anyway and probably to spite C.B. (Charlie did have his battles with Piping Rock). I grew up around Piping Rock and believe me there were more than a few those fancy-smancy French quoting members who sounded like they had mashed potatoes in their mouth-----eg "Berwick" could easily have been mistook for "Biarritz", particularly at the end when the mashed potatoes sort of oozed out of their mouths and they tried to suck them back in. That actually creates a sound that one might mistake for a Z instead  of a K. Not to even mention that the members of Piping Rock just liked the word "ritz" and the sound of it. Most of them stayed in the Ritz hotels and just about every tenth word was "ritzy" if they were talking about themselves and their world.

Here's a little bit of interesting trivia pertaining to the Biarritz at Piping Rock (#9). It was coming off that hole that Mrs Grace who was playing in a pro/member with Sam Snead asked Snead in frustration to give her some advice on her game, to which Snead replied: "Maam, my advice to you is to take two weeks off and then quit the game." To that  Mrs Grace told Snead to get the hell off her course and he was never again allowed at Piping Rock! Following that Mrs Grace was heard to mumble: "That hillbilly has absolutely no "ritz" at all."

[Jim Nugent]

I remember being taught the traditional "Biarritz shot"  as a kid at Piping Rock. You were supposed to land a low trajectory shot on the front fairway approach and run it into and up through the swale and onto the green. I don't think that shot would work very well with the chasm formed by the Bay of Biscay between the tee and the green at the old biarritz hole in France!

 

This is why it surprises me that some of the well-known Biarritz holes are downhill.  Seems like a lot harder to run your shot through the swale, when it's dropping from an elevated tee.  How does this work at Yale?

Isn't the green at NGLA's Redan higher than the tee?  What about the Redan at N. Berwick?   

[BCrosby]

This thread breaths new life into a suspicion I've had for a long time that MacD made-up his Biarritz template. Obviously this is speculation, but I don't think it's slobber-knocking crazy speculation.

Consider that the Chasm Hole was distinguished by,... well, the chasm you had to carry; consider that the few existing records talk about the hole in terms of that forced carry; consider that there is no account, photograph or anything else of what the green actually looked like, which is odd given its purported unusual form; consider that it is unlikely that MacD ever saw the hole; and finally consider that the Biarritz template is the worst of MacD's template holes.

Just thinkin' out loud ...

Bob

[TEPaul]

JimN:

The tee shot to the green at Piping Rock's biarritz (Macdonald/Raynor's first biarritz) is slightly downhill all the way making that traditional low traj "biarritz" shot all the more difficult to execute.

The redan at Piping is higher above the green than any redan  I'm aware of including NB's and NGLA's which seem pretty much on level with the tee shot.

All this just proves to me that too many people try to fit Macdonald's "copy" or prototype holes into some easy and explanable box----something I don't believe Macdonald or Raynor ever tried to do. I don't know how many times this has come up on here and despite it all I just don't think all that many people will ever really understand where they were coming from on these things.

But if these over-arching over-thinkers on here are really looking for some kind of similarity abroad for biarrtiz two tier/swale greens they should henceforth rebabel those holes and those greens as "Berwick" holes and greens and not "Biarritz" holes. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Nugent,

One of the reasons I liked the Biarritz at Mountain Lake was due to the level of the tee in relation to the level of the green.

I think it allows for a far more diverse selection of clubs on the tee shot and recovery

Having played the Biarritz at The Knoll since I was a teenager, I'm also quite fond of it, despite the elevated nature of the tee and the failure to mow the front tier and swale as putting surface.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Even though the chasm hole in Biarritz no longer exists, the land features are still there.  Could someone, if they wanted, take pictures, and then use photoshop to make some approximations of what the hole might have looked like? 

Jim have a look at the link to an old thread I posted above.  When I was there I was looking from as near as I could get to the tee. From another aerial I have somewhere, you can see there is some access behind the houses where the green would have been.  I didn't know this at the time of either of my visits and I would like someone to check it out - just in case.

The comments from Tommy and George on the other thread alos contradict some of the speculative posts on this one.

The original hole feaatured the carry over the chasm and a green with a large swale.  Whats not clear is how the green played when the angle to it changed as the hole was shortened.


Finally without giving too much away, the original thread inspired one of 'us' (not me) to atempt a flyover of the area.  Unfortunately bad weather prevented this intrepid trip,but I have high hopes that one day this might yet turn out to be one of the great GCA stories.

[Chip Gaskins]

cool pic i had from my last visit to berwick:

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