[David Stamm]

To those that have played it, I know the hole is a par 4, but can the green be classified as a Biarritz green?

[Bill_McBride]

More or less, but it doesn't play straight on like most Biarritzes, you approach from a bit left of the centerline and that makes the shot very awkward.  It is an amazing green, the front half is a bit larger than the back but neither is any where as large as most Biarritz greens.

My caddy the first time there told me you ignore the apparent breaks when putting from front to back or vice versa through the valley.  Just putt it straight at the hole and the various slopes self compensate!

Great golf hole in the middle of a run home of great holes. 

[James Bennett]

My caddy the first time there told me you ignore the apparent breaks when putting from front to back or vice versa through the valley.  Just putt it straight at the hole and the various slopes self compensate!

Bill

we tried that in March, didn't we?  Our pin was on the front tier, and we putted to the back tier for fun.  It would take forever to try and read properly, but sure enough it is a 'straight putt' - well, it breaks left, then right, or is it right, then left?  It ends up straight though.

David,

IMO you could never call North Berwick West #16 a biarritz.  You really can't land the ball on the front green with your approach and have any expectation of the ball running up onto the back tier.  The angle of the approach reminds me of The Old Course #17 Road Hole, but with two tiny, perched greens connected by a swale about where the road hole bunker is.

James B

[Jon Wiggett]

What also makes the approach testing is if you want to play for either plateau you have to negotiate the front slope which require some speed on the ball to climb. If you are long (i.e through the back) or the ball is steered left of the green, then the recovery is very tricky. This means one has to make a decision to go for it or lay up from say 100 yards out. There can't be many holes which require you to seriously lay up from so close.

[Bryan Izatt]

Depends on your definition of a biarritz and how much leeway you want to give the definition.  It sure doesn't look like any other biarritz I've seen.  It's also the polar opposite of a naturalistic green - two little table tops connected by a rut.  But a significant challenge and a hoot to play.  I watched a few groups play it at dusk one time and I've never heard so much out-loud verbal coaching and pleading with balls in movement  as around that green.

[Darren_Kilfara]

My wife and I have some good friends who moved a few months ago into a flat that overlooks the 16th green at North Berwick - I think it's the one just in the edge of the photo on the right. In all honesty, of all the greens in the world that one could choose to overlook (from a house or flat actually in existence), is there one you'd rather overlook than the 16th green at North Berwick? How fascinating would that be?

Cheers,
Darren

[Sean_A]

I think the entire hole makes a fascinating study of architecture.  A wall, a burn and this crazy green.  This is certainly one instance where being able to easily carry the burn these days is an example of how equipment can change the game for the worse.  In the old days this was a par 5 and I still think it is a very legitimate call to make this a bogey 5 even with all the fancy equipment.

Ciao

[wsmorrison]

All of the original Macdonald/Raynor Biarritz greens had the first flat section as fairway and not green.  Having both sections at green height is a curious change in design intent.  Why not maintain the original presentation?  Is having 80 yards of variety in pin position necessary?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Wayne

North Berwick is a little gem, not bad for the 13th oldest club in the world.

Also this post proves that a caddy is of more assistance than a buggy (sorry,
I’m at it again). But do we all want advice  – play your own shot and learn,
that’s the magic of golf. 

Although if you are only playing the course once then a CAD 
(Caddy Assisted Discussion) is always helpful.   

[TEPaul]

"To those that have played it, I know the hole is a par 4, but can the green be classified as a Biarritz green?"

David:

I don't think it's very important to discuss if the 16th green at NB can be classified as a biarritz green or not and I think most of us realize the original Biarritz hole was in Northern France.

Most of us have seen drawings and sketches of the Biarritz in France and some of us have seen the 16th hole at NB.

Of course it's impossible to prove but in my mind Macdonald borrowed various characteristics from each to do what he and Raynor did in America with the so-called "Biarritz" holes which actually can be quite different from one another.

Probably the biarritz in America which is closest to the general characterisitics of France's Biarritz is Fishers Islands's 5th. But neither the original hole in France nor Fishers #5 have a green as much like what we consider to be a biarritz green as NB's #16 does.

It seems to me Macdonald essentially borrowed the look and shape of NB's 16th green for his basic green idea for biarritzes in America but NB's 16th green preceded anything Macdonald did and if it was not considered to be a biarritz green before Macdonald borrowed its green shape and type then it's not a biarritz green now.

All it can be called is NB's ususual two tiered green with a massive swale in the middle, even if Macdonald borrowed the shape and type for what were later called Biarritzes or the Biarritz green.

But did Macdonald borrow the green idea for his biarritzes from NB's #16 green? In my opinion, there's not much question of it---eg of course he did.

[wsmorrison]

Melvyn,

I was completely fascinated by everything to do with North Berwick the first time I played it.  I stood in amazement in a lot of places, but particularly at the 16th green.  It is marvelous and contrasted to the formal manufactured look of MacRayBanks Biarritz greens, supposedly a conceptual link to a chasm hole in Biarritz--though we don't know exactly what it looked like. The 16th at North Berwick stands far above and beyond anything so contrived as the Macdonald Biarritz model. 

It is curious that naturalism escaped or did not interest Macdonald so much.   If we consider the context of the time and the kind of architecture that was being practiced then, it becomes a bit clearer, though still a head scratcher.  He moved leaps ahead in terms of golfing interest but not so very much in terms of a golfing aesthetic.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Wayne

Perhaps it’s the views, being able to see Fife over the Firth or maybe
something to do with the 19th Century competitions held over the course.

I also expect that being fun to play may add to its appeal. 

[TEPaul]

I'll tell you how unobservant I am. When I first played that hole I had the yardage for my approach to the middle of the green. The pin was on the back. I hit what I  thought was a good shot but I pulled it a little and it ended up just to the left of the swale. I thought that was pretty odd because I hit my approach shot just the way I wanted to distance-wise. I then chipped the ball up and sunk the putt and walked to the back of the green. At that point was when I first noticed the front tier and its putting surface. Before holing out I thought the swale was some kind of approach area and the back tier was all there was to the 16th green.   

I guess CraigA and I were sort of out-to-lunch that day, at least distance-wise. That was the same round he hit Mrs Major's ahead of us in the ass three times. He only admits to hitting her in the ass once but I'm observant enough to testify in court under oath that he hit her in the ass at least three times.

That was the same round when standing on the 4th tee waiting for Mrs Majors to clear the green, Craig turned around and asked me what kind of architectural idiot would put bunkers in an enormous mound out in the middle of nowhere. I said I had no idea. About two hours later we both realized that was the famous Redan hole. Immediately following those two completely unobservant remarks Craig teed off on #4 and hit Mrs Major's in the ass for the first time because she had apparently not yet cleared the green although it looked like she had!

That was the same trip we were both staying in the famous Greywalls hotel. For the first day we were wondering what that cow-pasture was behind the hotel and both of us speculated that the area might make a decent place for a golf course. On the second day somebody told us that area was Muirfield. 

One thing we both did notice immediately though was Mrs Majors had quite an attractive ass. It was not in the slightest artificial looking----very natural looking in fact and I guess it must have flowed in fairly well with the natural contours of the course and NB generally.

[BCrosby]

The two nights my wife and I spent at Greywalls a couple of years ago were unforgettable. Best hotel we've ever stayed in. (My wife wants to write a book about their gardens.) Sadly, I heard recently that Grewalls is now open only to private groups. Perhaps Darren has an update on things there.

Whether the 16th is a Biarritz green or not is not terribly important. It doesn't have flanking bunkers, the front half is cut at at green height, etc.

The lesson of the 16th, however, is that greens with those sorts of swales are best used with lofted iron approach shots. For that reason, I think the 16th at NB is a much better green than a MacD Biarritz. Approaching this sort of green from 230 + yards has never made much sense to me.

Bob

[Jon Spaulding]

The impetus for this.... was a statement made by a guy I played with yesterday. He has played NGLA a number of times and I had offered to loan him the Bahto book on MacD. I mentioned that it has good information on the templates.....like the Biarritz.

So then he comes out and says that the Biarritz is based on the 16th @ North Berwick. I tell him he's thinking of the Redan...etc....and no, he comes back & says that the Redan is the 15th but he's talking about the 16th. I say it's without question based on the Chasm hole in France....he goes back to the 16th @ NB. Told him I would look deeper and get back to him. So I placed a call last night to my help line in San Diego

With the lack of publicity the 16th gets, and after looking at Bryan's pictures this morning.....If the Chasm hole was built in 1886, and 16 NB predates it, could this have served as inspiration for Dunn when he went to France? Could it have served as one for MacD as well on his travels in Scotland?

[David Stamm]

The impetus for this.... was a statement made by a guy I played with yesterday. He has played NGLA a number of times and I had offered to loan him the Bahto book on MacD. I mentioned that it has good information on the templates.....like the Biarritz.

So then he comes out and says that the Biarritz is based on the 16th @ North Berwick. I tell him he's thinking of the Redan...etc....and no, he comes back & says that the Redan is the 15th but he's talking about the 16th. I say it's without question based on the Chasm hole in France....he goes back to the 16th @ NB. Told him I would look deeper and get back to him. So I placed a call last night to my help line in San Diego

With the lack of publicity the 16th gets, and after looking at Bryan's pictures this morning.....If the Chasm hole was built in 1886, and 16 NB predates it, could this have served as inspiration for Dunn when he went to France? Could it have served as one for MacD as well on his travels in Scotland?

It would be tough to say without seeing the green if Dunn was influenced by this. To me, it would make sense that CBM was influenced by NB's 16th and then gave the concept it's name in honor of the French hole. I think, and this is speculation, that CBM might have thought that the bottom of the swale of the green at NB represented the Chasm that one must get across to reach the flag like the tee shot in France. This would tie in with Wayne's thoughts on the front portion on the green complex being actually maintained as fw instead of green.

[Mark Pearce]

The two nights my wife and I spent at Greywalls a couple of years ago were unforgettable. Best hotel we've ever stayed in. (My wife wants to write a book about their gardens.) Sadly, I heard recently that Grewalls is now open only to private groups. Perhaps Darren has an update on things there.

Bob

Bob,

That's right.  Apparently they struggled to recruit a decent chef since they were only open 6 months a year.  It's now open only for conferences/weddings etc with outside catering.

[Kyle Harris]

Isn't this the Maiden Green?

[Tom_Doak]

I do not believe the 16th green at North Berwick had anything to do with C.B. Macdonald's Biarritz, for two reasons:

1.  Macdonald was very open about where he got his ideas from, and the 16th at North Berwick does not show up ANYWHERE in his notes or articles or recorded comments, even though the 15th hole certainly does.

2.  Bernard Darwin, who was a pretty keen architectural observer, wrote several pages about North Berwick in 1910 and did not mention the 16th hole at all, even though he wrote extensive descriptions of many other holes on the course.  For that reason, I surmise that the green today was changed sometime after 1910 ... perhaps just by mowing the front part as green, when it wasn't before.  I've never seen anything recorded about the history of that green, but I just can't imagine that Darwin played the hole multiple times and it didn't strike him as interesting.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Are there any photos of drawings of the original Biarritz green?

Anthony

[TEPaul]

It seems like the belief will never die that Macdonald's concept of copying holes from the other side only meant he copied entire holes and fairly exactly. In some cases he probably did to that but seemingly in many other cases he simply used ideas from other holes abroad.

Listen to his own words on this:

"I labored four years to that end. In 1904 I again made a study of foreign courses, reflecting on the "whys" and wherefore." In  1906, after four months in Europe, I completed my research studies and brought home with me surveyors' maps of the more famous holes; Alps, Redan, Eden, and the Road hole, also some twenty or thirty sketches, personally drawn, of holes embodying distinctive features, which in themselves seemed misplaced, but could be utilized to harmonize with a certain character of undulating ground and lay the foundation for an ideal hole."

The green type of the Biarrtz is probably the latter, and it seems to me the green of NB's 16th is a very good candidate for where he got one of his ideas to copy.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

I understand that Macdonald didn't always copy entire holes from the UK courses.  But he never mentioned the 16th green at North Berwick as being interesting, whereas in some of his notes about courses he will say "tee shot bunkering from x, green from y".

And how do you explain Bernard Darwin never saying anything about it?

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

I would warn against making the huge supposition that Macdonald or Darwin never wrote or commented about the 16th. Just because there is no existing proof does not mean they did not do so. As an example, until the misplaced Donald Ross manuscript was uncovered it could have been said about a variety of subjects that “Ross never commented or wrote about them,” when, in fact, he had.

Likewise, because Darwin and Macdonald did comment on a number of golf holes does not, however, prove that they did so for every hole they saw or admired.

Unless a drawing or photograph of the original hole at Biarritz, what Macdonald took from the design is only speculation.

Anthony

[JSlonis]

Just a couple of photos of my friend "in" the green from my first visit to N Berwick.  Although it has similar characteristics to a Biarritz type green, I wouldn't call this one the same.  It is a blast to play though.




From the N Berwick website:


A couple more just for fun...

The "flat" 2nd fairway:


The Pit. Don't argue with the wall...it is older than you.

[Rich Goodale]

.....If the Chasm hole was built in 1886, and 16 NB predates it, could this have served as inspiration for Dunn when he went to France? Could it have served as one for MacD as well on his travels in Scotland?

Jon

The current double plateau green at #16 NB dates from 1895, after the "Chasm" was built.  Prior to that time it consisted of a single plateau (the nearest one to the right), and at one time was almost surrounded by water!

Rich

PS--North Berwick was (and even still sometimes is) referred to as "The Biarritz of the North."

Anybody

When was Macdonald's 1st Biarritz?  If it was Yale, the French Connection seems more plausible, given the long forced carry over water.

R

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