[Dean Stokes]

Dean,

Please, tell me which course in the U.S. you want to play and how do you know you can't.  I always thought Europe was classier than only caring about how much money a guy can produce.

JK, I do not know ' for sure' what the answer would be to my phonecall but I am presuming if I phoned Shinnecock, Winged Foot or Merion tomorrow and asked for a tee time for 4 visitors I would probably not get one. Do you think I would be able to get on these wonderful golf courses?

[John Kavanaugh]

I think we have the best system in the world where anyone can play any club in this country based on your character instead of your cash.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Dean,

Please, tell me which course in the U.S. you want to play and how do you know you can't.  I always thought Europe was classier than only caring about how much money a guy can produce.

JK, I do not know ' for sure' what the answer would be to my phonecall but I am presuming if I phoned Shinnecock, Winged Foot or Merion tomorrow and asked for a tee time for 4 visitors I would probably not get one. Do you think I would be able to get on these wonderful golf courses?

I don't understand the need to play with your friends but I do think that if you asked properly you could play any of the above courses in due time.  The phone idea is out.

[Dean Stokes]

Are there courses in England that are impossible for a given class of person to ever become a member?

I'm sure there are but you can still play them as a visitor!!!!

Dean,

Don't bet on it.

Most British and Irish  clubs welcome the money from visitors, no matter how prestigous. The members are delighted to have a bunch of furriners spending vast sums on inflated green fees.

A host of American clubs do not rely on outside play to meet their budgets, hence the reluctance to open the gates to the hoi-polloi. An American  club member has possibly paid a kings ransome to join a club and sees no benefit in allowing someone not as affluent in sharing his demesne.

As my dear departed Mother told me as a youngster, "Life is inherently unfair, get used to it."


Bob

Bob, my Dad told me the same thing a while ago! While we're on this subject can someone explain how the heck initiation fees ever got so high in the US? I played a course not long ago that was approx. $175k to join. I have played much better courses back in the UK that were under $1000 to join.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Don't you think Seminole could give up their tax exempt status and let anyone who gets to the gate play and still stay solvent.

JakaB,

No.

That's one of the most absurd suggestions I've seen on this site, one you didn't think through before posting.

Under your scenario, anyone who shows up at the gates can play golf, so, when would the dues paying members be able to play golf ?  

After midnight ?
Or subject to regulated, limited starting times due to the enormous amount of outside play ?

Think of the impact on private clubs of being subjected to State and Federal public policy/facility laws.  The club would be ruined within a year.

However, If you think your idea has merit, it should be tested at the local level.

You should formally petition YOUR club to permit open access.

Surely, the new untapped revenue stream from outside play would offset the loss of the club's not for profit tax status.

Then, anyone who showed up to play would be granted access, and you, as a member, can now wait your turn to play along with the hordes lining up at the front gate.

Please let us know how your petition is received by your club.

If  you're successful, I'm sure others on this site will approach their clubs with a similar proposal.[/color]

[Dean Stokes]

Dean,

Please, tell me which course in the U.S. you want to play and how do you know you can't.  I always thought Europe was classier than only caring about how much money a guy can produce.

JK, I do not know ' for sure' what the answer would be to my phonecall but I am presuming if I phoned Shinnecock, Winged Foot or Merion tomorrow and asked for a tee time for 4 visitors I would probably not get one. Do you think I would be able to get on these wonderful golf courses?

I don't understand the need to play with your friends but I do think that if you asked properly you could play any of the above courses in due time.  The phone idea is out.

Because I wish to go for a day out with people I want to spend a day with.

[John Kavanaugh]

Pat,

Don't you think Seminole could give up their tax exempt status and let anyone who gets to the gate play and still stay solvent.

JakaB,

No.

That's one of the most absurd suggestions I've seen on this site, one you didn't think through before posting.

Under your scenario, anyone who shows up at the gates can play golf, so, when would the dues paying members be able to play golf ?  

After midnight ?
Or subject to regulated, limited starting times due to the enormous amount of outside play ?

Think of the impact on private clubs of being subjected to State and Federal public policy/facility laws.  The club would be ruined within a year.

However, If you think your idea has merit, it should be tested at the local level.

You should formally petition YOUR club to permit open access.

Surely, the new untapped revenue stream from outside play would offset the loss of the club's not for profit tax status.

Then, anyone who showed up to play would be granted access, and you, as a member, can now wait your turn to play along with the hordes lining up at the front gate.

Please let us know how your petition is received by your club.

If  you're successful, I'm sure others on this site will approach their clubs with a similar proposal.[/color]

Pat,

Are you telling me that the architecture, history and location of Seminole is not of a high enough quality to survive as a public course.  I think it would do gang busters.

[Dean Stokes]

Pat,

Don't you think Seminole could give up their tax exempt status and let anyone who gets to the gate play and still stay solvent.

JakaB,

No.

That's one of the most absurd suggestions I've seen on this site, one you didn't think through before posting.

Under your scenario, anyone who shows up at the gates can play golf, so, when would the dues paying members be able to play golf ?  

After midnight ?
Or subject to regulated, limited starting times due to the enormous amount of outside play ?

Think of the impact on private clubs of being subjected to State and Federal public policy/facility laws.  The club would be ruined within a year.

However, If you think your idea has merit, it should be tested at the local level.

You should formally petition YOUR club to permit open access.

Surely, the new untapped revenue stream from outside play would offset the loss of the club's not for profit tax status.

Then, anyone who showed up to play would be granted access, and you, as a member, can now wait your turn to play along with the hordes lining up at the front gate.

Please let us know how your petition is received by your club.

If  you're successful, I'm sure others on this site will approach their clubs with a similar proposal.[/color]

Pat, I had no idea or concept of tax implications at these clubs.
Would 2/3 tee times a day of guests affect these situations.

Another way I look at this visitor situation is that if ever had the opportunity to build and run my own private club I would want it to be seen. There would be a couple hundred members but I would have tee times set aside for visitors groups. You would need a h'cap cert. and a knowledge of golf etiquette/ rules but I would be more than happy to let golfers come and experience my golf club. Why hide these gems for a few that have the money or were perhaps - how can I put it - born into these clubs.

[John Kavanaugh]

Dean,

Please, tell me which course in the U.S. you want to play and how do you know you can't.  I always thought Europe was classier than only caring about how much money a guy can produce.

JK, I do not know ' for sure' what the answer would be to my phonecall but I am presuming if I phoned Shinnecock, Winged Foot or Merion tomorrow and asked for a tee time for 4 visitors I would probably not get one. Do you think I would be able to get on these wonderful golf courses?

I don't understand the need to play with your friends but I do think that if you asked properly you could play any of the above courses in due time.  The phone idea is out.

Because I wish to go for a day out with people I want to spend a day with.

This is going to be tougher for you than I thought.  Why would you not want to spend a day with the member of a great club who can share with you inside stories and facts?  You are going to need some work.

[Michael Powers]

The members of private equity clubs own the course.  It is true that many clubs that would be considered highly private do allow non-member play at a premium price.  Also, I think many would be surprised at the clubs that are accomodating if your pro calls on your behalf.  If the members own the club, then they can place any restriction on play they wish.  I see no issue.

[Jason Connor]

While we're on this subject can someone explain how the heck initiation fees ever got so high in the US? I played a course not long ago that was approx. $175k to join. I have played much better courses back in the UK that were under $1000 to join.  

I believe the answer is the same as the answer to your original question:  Supply & demand.

Many filthy rich men desire to associate strictly with people like them.  How do they ensure that?  175k memberships.  It's obvious to me they are paying for the camaraderie, not for the quality of the golf course.  

Likewise if Augusta offered tee times to anyone wiling to pay $500, the members wouldn't have what they have and pay dearly to maintain.  Mike Keiser and the owners of Pebble, Pinehurst, etc, have proven what people will pay to play, and more importantly how many people are willing to pay it.

I think there are more such people here in the US than in Europe, even Great Britain.  Hence the market in the UK and here are markedly different.

Again look at your cup as half full -- you can play a bunch of great courses in the UK with a letter to the secretary.  

[Jason Connor]

PS: Regarding wanting to play with your 3 friends, see my sig line.

[John Kavanaugh]

I want to see this list of UK courses that can be joined for 1,000 U.S. dollars.

[Mike Sweeney]

Because I wish to go for a day out with people I want to spend a day with.

Dean,

Merion and Winged Foot probably have close to 800 members. It is not like these two clubs are empty. Winged Foot has a number of outings on Mondays, you can IM me on details for the New York Athletic Club's outing which supports Olympic Athletes from the smaller sports. Shinnecock has some outings and unaccompanied play in the shoulder season. If you are a cop or a fireman in Southampton, you have probably played the course. You picked 3 US Open courses in the most populous area of the USA!

Trust me, you write a very nice letter to a couple of Flynn, Tilly, Raynor........ courses not located in the middle of everything and chances are a couple will be very generous assuming you don't want a 9:00 tee time on a Saturday in June!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Are you telling me that the architecture, history and location of Seminole is not of a high enough quality to survive as a public course.

Absolutely.

What no hurricane has done in 80 years would be quick work the moment it went public.

As a public course the architecture would be set upon, made less penal and "more fair".

The history of the club would cease on the conversion date.

Seminole's members and leaders alone are responsible for the perpetuation of the club's traditions and history and they've done a wonderful job of that over the years.

In fact, there's a great new book out.
"The Story of Seminole"
It's historical, architectural, interesting and informative.
Great reading if you're into golf and architecture.  [/color]

I think it would do gang busters.


Then there's something wrong with your thinking

Your idea is beyond eccentric, it's insane.
But, you knew that when you were typing.

Why don't you petition the folks at Victoria National to allow unlimited public access and see if your idea flies.  Or better yet, let us know if you're still a member a week after your petition hits the President's desk.[/color]

[Dean Stokes]

Because I wish to go for a day out with people I want to spend a day with.

Dean,

Merion and Winged Foot probably have close to 800 members. It is not like these two clubs are empty. Winged Foot has a number of outings on Mondays, you can IM me on details for the New York Athletic Club's outing which supports Olympic Athletes from the smaller sports. Shinnecock has some outings and unaccompanied play in the shoulder season. If you are a cop or a fireman in Southampton, you have probably played the course. You picked 3 US Open courses in the most populous area of the USA!

Trust me, you write a very nice letter to a couple of Flynn, Tilly, Raynor........ courses not located in the middle of everything and chances are a couple will be very generous assuming you don't want a 9:00 tee time on a Saturday in June!

Thankyou for the advice Mike. I just happened to throw out a few well known private clubs and was not particularly thinking about the areas they're in.

[John Kavanaugh]

Dean,

That is the problem.  You come on here claiming to be shut out and you have not even tried.

[Mike Sweeney]

Dean,

That is the problem.  You come on here claiming to be shut out and you have not even tried.

From what I hear, getting on in the USA is a piece of cake compared to Japan. I still say Bethpage is the second hardest course to get on (assuming you are past the age of sleeping in a car) in America!

[Michael Powers]

Another idea to consider, especially when you speak of course accessability  in Great Britain

"The step, under the 1894 Act, of imposing a charge on anyone to play golf in St. Andrews, was unprecedented in the Town's history.  But the Old Course continued to be free and open for anyone to play over its venerable turf for many years.

By 1913, however, the congestion was again becoming so acure as to be almost untolerable, with both courses becoming more crowded than ever.  A third layout was the Jubilee Course and a fourth the Eden laid out on the west side of the Links.  At the same time, and Act of Parliament had to be applied for to enable the local authorities to impose a charge on visitors for playing over the New and Eden, and , most revolutioinary of all, over the Old Course.

Final shattering of the age-old tradition of free golf came when the townspeople, in 1946, were charged up to a maximum of 2 pounds per year for playing golf on their own courses.

Never before, in the age-long history of the Old Course, had they paid for their golf.  This measure required a new Parliamentary Order which was preceeded by a lengthy and exhaustive public inquiry at Edinburgh."

James K. Robertson, St. Andrews Home of Golf

At the time that golf was no longer free in Scotland (1946), there were already many ultra-exlusive private clubs in the U.S. which did not permit unaccompanied guests on their courses.  I would argue that the reason that unaccompanied guest play is viewed differently in Europe is the infuence of St. Andrews.  The poeple of St. Andrews viewed free access for them and any guest (accompanied or otherwise) to be an inherent right.  It just didn't come down that way in the States.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I believe the answer is the same as the answer to your original question:  Supply & demand.

Many filthy rich men desire to associate strictly with people like them.  
How do they ensure that?  
175k memberships.  

It's obvious to me they are paying for the camaraderie, not for the quality of the golf course.  

Jason, I don't think you have an understanding of the dynamic of membership at clubs today.

You'll be surprised to know that many "great" clubs have fairly low entry fees.

It's not about the money, it's about the prospective member.

Those clubs with high entry fees tend to be newer clubs where the cost of land and development were high and the owner/s are trying to recoup their investment.

When Mike Pascucci writes a check for $ 46,000,000 just for the land and millions more for the course and facilities, should he give away memberships in the name of charity ?  Should he let anyone who shows up play his course ?  At the expense of the members who paid for that privilege ?

When Paul Fireman spends $ 120,000,000 of his own money developing his course and facilities should he allow strangers to walk on at their leisure and play at nominal green fees ? [/color]

Likewise if Augusta offered tee times to anyone wiling to pay $500, the members wouldn't have what they have and pay dearly to maintain.  

Agreed.[/color]

Mike Keiser and the owners of Pebble, Pinehurst, etc, have proven what people will pay to play, and more importantly how many people are willing to pay it.

Those are RESORT courses, not PRIVATE clubs, and as such, there are different dynamics in play.[/color]

I think there are more such people here in the US than in Europe, even Great Britain.  Hence the market in the UK and here are markedly different.

With the DOLLAR where it is, I think you'll find just the reverse these days.[/color]

Again look at your cup as half full -- you can play a bunch of great courses in the UK with a letter to the secretary.  

It's more of a tax and public policy issue, irrespective of how you look at the cup..[/color]

[Dean Stokes]

Dean,

That is the problem.  You come on here claiming to be shut out and you have not even tried.

John I will repeat I was not looking to get in an argument tonight. I would like to know why in the US I cannot go on a private clubs website and look at the visitor policies, booking information and green fee/tee time restrictions? Have a look at www.kingstonheath.com One of Australia's top private clubs for how easily this can be achieved.

[Mike Sweeney]

Dean,

That is the problem.  You come on here claiming to be shut out and you have not even tried.

John I will repeat I was not looking to get in an argument tonight. I would like to know why in the US I cannot go on a private clubs website and look at the visitor policies, booking information and green fee/tee time restrictions? Have a look at www.kingstonheath.com One of Australia's top private clubs for how easily this can be achieved.

Dean,

20 million people in Oz, 300 million in USA, basically the same geographic size .......... they are different markets. Let's talk about getting on at Hirono!

I would guess that a nice letter will get you on any private club in Maine. Different market.

[Bill_McBride]

It's pretty simple if not the answer you'd like, Dean.

In the UK they drive on the left, in the US we drive on the right.

In the UK it's mostly typical for private clubs of all kinds to offer some limited tee times to visitors in order to earn additional income for the club.  This is even true of the most exclusive clubs such as Murfield or Sunningdale.

In the US there is very little unaccompanied visitor play at high end private clubs.

As somebody said, two countries divided by a common language.  It's just a matter of customs.

Do you prefer the UK model?  Of course!  But that won't change the US model.

[John Kavanaugh]

Dean,

I'm telling you that if someone lives in Australia and flys to this country to study the architecture of a course they have close to a 100% chance of success.  Why don't you try to access a private course in this country and then tell me how it went.  I believe I will be able to show you a path towards success.  My God man, Sweeney just explained how to play Shinnecock which may be the very best we have to offer.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dean Stokes,

You should be aware that most private clubs forbid their own members from using the club's roster for solicitations.   Political, charitable or any other type.

The USGA recently altered their policy on access to handicap information.

The climate, especially the legal climate is very different in the U.S.

Do you think that members of a well to do or highly visible clubs would want the general public to know they're members, complete with their addresses and phone numbers ?

Do you think that members with young children would want their personal info made available at the stroke of a key.

There are too many deranged and criminal elements lurking about.

Privacy is a highly valued commodity in the U.S. and neither you nor the public has any right to access privileged information.

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