Visitors green fees at Private Clubs?

[Dean Stokes]

I've been thinking about this for sometime now and feel that some of this golf savvy group will be able to supply answers to my question.
We can all go to England this Summer, handicap certificate in hand, and phone the golf shop/secretary of many tremendous PRIVATE clubs. Ganton, Woodhall Spa, Silloth, Wentworth, Swinley Forest etc. etc. all accept bookings from visitors. We can go and play, sit in the bar afterwards and enjoy a beer with the very proud members of these clubs, and if we like - report back to GCA.
We can also go to Australia and play Royal Melbourne, Kingston Heath etc. - some of the most beautiful PRIVATE clubs in the world and play them without needing to know members to "get us on".

What on earth makes the PRIVATE clubs in the US so special that they don't take visitors groups? I love golf, respect the rules and etiquette of the game, dress appropriately on all occasions and play sharpish. However, unless I hit the lottery or befriend members of such clubs as Shinnecock, Merion, Riviera, Hazeleltine, Seminole (the list is endless) I am going to be able to talk about them, visualize them, look at photos of them - but never play them!
Golf courses are meant to be played and most of these courses are well underplayed.
Where are the visitors tee times at PRIVATE clubs in the US?

[John Kavanaugh]

The clubs you speak of in England and Australia are obviously not private.  Go to Bandon and pretend it is private.

[Dean Stokes]

JK,
Every club I mentioned is PRIVATE. And most of them are what you would consider "high end" private in this country. I just do not understand the closed door policy at the clubs in the US. Why limit playing rights to just a few who can afford the ridiculous initiation fees at some of these clubs when the courses are empty 3/4's of the time?

[John Kavanaugh]

How can you tell me those courses are private if they let anyone play.  Perhaps they are semi-private.  I am a member of a semi-private course that lets anyone play on Mondays as long as they live outside the county.  We do not pretend it is private.

Personally I do not wish to play any course in Europe unless with a member.  Seems like the rates make more sense.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

I've found that most private clubs do allow unaccompanied guests for the right price. Usually however you need to call at just the right time and play at the right time and it helps to have a head pro call from a home course elsewhere. I can't speak for Shinnecock, Riviera or Merion but I'm pretty sure you could get on Hazeltine  for the right price. Interlachen had more una's last year than the previous 5 as well. Calusa Pines also has quite a few unaccompanied groups as well but they all pay very high rates to do so. Maybe its just a question of how to work the system and it is tougher in the U.S. than elsewhere. I remember hearing that either SF GC or Olympic (not sure which) did allow one una 4-some a week on Monday mornings and getting that slot was extremely tough but the one group was a long standing tradition. Anyway just what I know in my little experience of the golf industry.

[Dean Stokes]

JK,
Because I was a member at a club similar to them. Extremely private and may I add rather snooty (although I didn't fit into that category). Visitors can pay to play. Just because you are a private club does not mean that you cannot accept visitors. Maybe you should check their websites and read the visitor information - I did before I wrote the question.

[John Kavanaugh]

Dean,

Is there a course in the United States that would not allow you to either join or play?  Why do you feel you have the right to pay less than the members?

[rchesnut]

What's the definition of a private club?  We discuss this at Pasatiempo a lot, where there are members who own a share of the corporation and pay an annual fee, and get unlimited play, and enjoy restricted members hours...but the course also allows public play during certain hours.   

Lots of public courses don't have equity members, and lots of public courses now offer annual fees and unlimited play.  Cypress Point allows unaccompanied guests.  Olympic hosts public tournaments.   Royal Melbourne and most European clubs allow public play.   

So what's public and what's private?

Rob

 

[David_Tepper]

Dean -

This topic has been discussed and debated here on several occasions over the past 3-4 years.

As the saying goes, "it is what is is."   You could do a masters thesis in sociology to explain why the private club system in the U.S. treats this matter differently from the private club system in in GB&I and elsewhere in the Commonwealth.

DT 

[Dean Stokes]

Gents,
My question is really simple and I do not wish to get into a good ol' argument about the reasons. I'm just intrigued that you can go and play top PRIVATE clubs all over the world as a visitor but you cannot here. Why?

[Dean Stokes]

Dean -

This topic has been discussed and debated here on several occasions over the past 3-4 years.

As the saying goes, "it is what is is."   You could do a masters thesis in sociology to explain why the private club system in the U.S. treats this matter differently from the private club system in in GB&I and elsewhere in the Commonwealth.

DT 

Thankyou David. I just feel it's such a disservice to the game that myself and a few friend cannot take a trip to different states and play, analize and discuss the merits of courses we hear about all the time. At the end of the day they are ONLY golf courses and you and I know we would pay well over the odds to play them.

[John Kavanaugh]

Dean,

What course in this country do you want to play that you feel has excluded you from becoming a member?  I believe we have a very open system and am a perfect example of a person who can play any course I so choose.  It is completely up to me.  Where is the problem?  Is it your lack of patience?

[John Kavanaugh]

Are there courses in England that are impossible for a given class of person to ever become a member?

[Dean Stokes]

John,
No club has excluded me from being a member. I do not wish to join these clubs and even if I did I do not have the exorbitant amount of money required or the contacts to sponsor me for membership.

I merely wish to have the ability to play them as a visitor as I pointed out is the norm throughout several other Countries. Have you not been to England, Scotland, Ireland and had the opportunity to play some of the best private clubs they have to offer. How do you think that came about?

[Dean Stokes]

Are there courses in England that are impossible for a given class of person to ever become a member?

I'm sure there are but you can still play them as a visitor!!!!

[John Kavanaugh]

I think it came about because of much like my local course, the economy sucks and they needed the money, so they decided to go semi-private.

[John Kavanaugh]

I do not understand why you will not name one course in this country that you can not play.  I do not think you tried.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dean Stokes,

The answer lies in the legal system in the U.S. and government's policies toward "private" versus public clubs.

I believe that the Judge in the Haverhill case ruled that unaccompanied guests were a form of membership and thus, the ruling catapulted the club from the domain of "strictly private" to a public accomodation/facility, and as such, subjected it to a different set of laws that are/were onerous in their application.

The tax laws in the U.S. also come into play.
Clubs are limited in the amount of outside revenue they can receive.
Should they exceed that threshold, they'd lose their tax exempt status, which again, has onerous consequences.

When you combine these two factors you can understand how guest policies evolved differently in the U.S.

[Jason Connor]

Private means private, they get to make their rules.  I can abide by that.

My home is private.  Should anyone be able to request a seat at my table for my wife's homemade squash ravioli?  Even if they're willing to pay for it?

You're allowed to play some courses in Europe because the members of the private club allow you to; the same goes for many courses here.  It's that simple.  Be grateful to them, don't be hostile toward the owners of American clubs who don't.  By this question, I almost feel like you think it's your right to play their course vs. their generous hospitality that allows you to play there.

As some one here once said (it was probably JK) members don't pay to play golf at their club.  They pay so others can't.  They pay for an underplayed course that is likely to be unclogged any time they desire to play.  If that's the way the members (if member owned) or the owner (if privately owned) wants it, then so be it.  It's their private property, with assembly (inclusive or exclusive) guaranteed by our first amendment.

I'd never tell any man what to do with his private property.

[John Kavanaugh]

Pat,

Don't you think Seminole could give up their tax exempt status and let anyone who gets to the gate play and still stay solvent.

[Bill Gayne]

In the USA private is defined as private property rights and for the most part the club is defined by access to a course. There are exceptions where there are very fine golf clubs in the USA without courses.

In GBI, a private golf club is defined by its membership and they may or may not own a golf course.  Golf courses are for the most part open but golf memberships (clubs) are private.

What I wrote may not make sense but I think it goes to the different mindsets to the game. In GBI it's more about match play, stablefords, and competitions against fellow members. In the USA it's about posting a score on the course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dean Stokes,

The answer lies in the legal system in the U.S. and government's policies toward "private" versus public clubs.

I believe that the Judge in the Haverhill case ruled that unaccompanied guests were a form of membership and thus, the ruling catapulted the club from the domain of "strictly private" to a public accomodation/facility, and as such, subjected it to a different set of laws that are/were onerous in their application.

The tax laws in the U.S. also come into play.
Clubs are limited in the amount of outside revenue they can receive.
Should they exceed that threshold, they'd lose their tax exempt status, which again, has onerous consequences.

When you combine these two factors you can understand how guest policies evolved differently in the U.S.

[Dean Stokes]

JK, There is nothing semi private about Ganton Golf Club. The Walker Cup was there four years ago and it is most definitely a  'well to do ' membership. Last Summer I went to England and twelve of us had a great day there playing 36 holes. We had lunch at the club and pints afterwards.

I am merely questioning why this approach to visitors playing private clubs has never been embraced in the US and why wouldn't it be?

[John Kavanaugh]

Dean,

Please, tell me which course in the U.S. you want to play and how do you know you can't.  I always thought Europe was classier than only caring about how much money a guy can produce.

[Bob_Huntley]

Are there courses in England that are impossible for a given class of person to ever become a member?

I'm sure there are but you can still play them as a visitor!!!!

Dean,

Don't bet on it.

Most British and Irish  clubs welcome the money from visitors, no matter how prestigous. The members are delighted to have a bunch of furriners spending vast sums on inflated green fees.

A host of American clubs do not rely on outside play to meet their budgets, hence the reluctance to open the gates to the hoi-polloi. An American  club member has possibly paid a kings ransome to join a club and sees no benefit in allowing someone not as affluent in sharing his demesne.

As my dear departed Mother told me as a youngster, "Life is inherently unfair, get used to it."


Bob