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[Kyle Harris]

What is the most influential acre in golf architecture?

[Tim Nugent]

one acre - 43,560 sf?  That's 207.8' by 207.8'. Or about 1/8 of the average golf hole.  So you're narrowing it down to a green complex (usually about 300' x 300') or a feature in a fairway.  Good luck on that one.

[Joe Hancock]

Any televised acre from Augusta National.

[David Stamm]

The 15th's green at North Berwick.

[Melvyn Hunter Morrow]

TOC

[Tim Bert]

Ran's house?!?

[Adam Clayman]

[Joe Hancock]

Adam,

Just to be the Devil's Advocate for a moment, what has the 16th at CP influenced? Remember, the question was "most" influential.

 

[Adam Clayman]

Well Joe, How about... The desire to play  inspiring seaside golf?
 
Bandon Dunes, Cabot Links, Nirwana Bali etc. etc. all recent additions (or soon to be) to the GC landscape. If the 16th at The Sistine wasn't a motivator, I don't know what was.

 

[Art Roselle]

I think it might be the Eden green at TOC.  I did not try to crop the picture to exactly one acre, but you get the idea.

[Joe Hancock]

Well Joe, How about... The desire to play  inspiring seaside golf?
 
 

Don't we have to defer to the other side of the pond for the greater influence? AM didn't get the idea of seaside golf at CP.

[Adam Clayman]

Joe, Since I'm still not yet an across the pond virgin, my impression is that those seaside links courses are not as close to the water, let alone have significant carries, as the hole pictured. Teeth of the Dog has seven holes virtually in the ocean.

Joe it was just an easy pictorial answer to the question.

 I suppose each person likely has a different, much more personal answer to the specific area that first captured, and held, their golfing spirit. Mine would either be here,  or, here;

[Joe Hancock]

Adam,

I was just going for more discussion, not attacking your selection. I think you are correct in that this could be a personal or global perspective question.

I think your first pic is the boxcar hole at Lawsonia, but where is the second and why is it influential to you?

Thanks,

Joe

[Adam Clayman]

Joe, I didn't take it as confrontational. Just responding on a beautiful day in the frozen tundra of western Nebraska, where it be 70 degrees today. (Can you say B-A-L-L-Y-N-E-A-L-?)

The second photo is of the first on the river course at Blackwolf Run. I suppose it was influential to me because when they bastardized the original course, separating it into two different GC's, I was able to feel the difference in the aspects that I find most important to a round of golf. The emotional journey created by a perfect ebb and flow of varying features, look and playability.

[RJ_Daley]

ust responding on a beautiful day in the frozen tundra of western Nebraska, where it be 70 degrees today. (Can you say B-A-L-L-Y-N-E-A-L-?)

My shoulders just slumped and my head fell forward and hit the PC monitor, and I questioned my home, commitment to staying here in GB, and overall sanity... 

Kyle, could the acre be the area or footprint where the R&A clubhouse, or Far Hills USGA facility resides?

[Kyle Harris]

ust responding on a beautiful day in the frozen tundra of western Nebraska, where it be 70 degrees today. (Can you say B-A-L-L-Y-N-E-A-L-?)

My shoulders just slumped and my head fell forward and hit the PC monitor, and I questioned my home, commitment to staying here in GB, and overall sanity... 

Kyle, could the acre be the area or footprint where the R&A clubhouse, or Far Hills USGA facility resides?

RJ,

I certainly thought of that and was expecting SOMEONE to bring it up. Go for it, if you'd like as I would love to hear opinions on just how much influence on architecture those organizations have had, and if they were more influential than any place on a course. On the other hand, is it the acre of property doing the influence or the meeting of the minds on that acre? By that definition, any acre encompassing a design office would count. It's a stretch of the definition, but I'll allow it for the purpose of discussion.

I'll throw out an arbitrary portion of the shared 1st/18th fairway at St. Andrews Old Course, where way back in the day, two holes were eliminated turning the current routing into 9 holes out and back for a total of 18.

[RJ_Daley]

Kyle, if the proxy of acreage is allowed to include that space where meeting rooms are located, where the rules of golf are promulgated, particularly on B&I, I believe anyone could come up with a better arguement of what area of space has influenced architecture more.  It seems so obvious to me... 

So obvious that I can't waste anymore time on this trivial pursuit of which acre is most influential; I have to get back to the beer drinkers tax thread and try to straighten out Lou Duran so that I can help save the country... 

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle, if the proxy of acreage is allowed to include that space where meeting rooms are located, where the rules of golf are promulgated, particularly on B&I, I believe anyone could come up with a better arguement of what area of space has influenced architecture more.  It seems so obvious to me... 

So obvious that I can't waste anymore time on this trivial pursuit of which acre is most influential; I have to get back to the beer drinkers tax thread and try to straighten out Lou Duran so that I can help save the country... 

They're taxing beer now?

Let's dump some PBR into the Anacostia River.

[Joe Hancock]

Kyle, if the proxy of acreage is allowed to include that space where meeting rooms are located, where the rules of golf are promulgated, particularly on B&I, I believe anyone could come up with a better arguement of what area of space has influenced architecture more.  It seems so obvious to me... 

So obvious that I can't waste anymore time on this trivial pursuit of which acre is most influential; I have to get back to the beer drinkers tax thread and try to straighten out Lou Duran so that I can help save the country... 

They're taxing beer now?

Let's dump some PBR into the Anacostia River.

PBR....river water.....fair comparison, lol

[Karl Bernetich]

Most influential ... It's only a 1/2 acre
Unless you are in it, then it's a big as the Sahara.
Hells

[Bradley Anderson]

This is pure guess with not a lot of proof text to support it, but I think it would have to be that creek hole at Merion - I can't remember the number now. That hole may not seem so influential today, but for so many years I think that hole influenced a lot of golf course architecture in America.

Pebble Beach and Cyprus Point, along with Augusta and Pine Valley were all golf courses that were and still are unique to their environment, but all of those architectural principles at Merion could be transfered to any cow pasture in America if you worked at it. And I think people payed big attention to those golf holes. And Bobby Jones played some great golf there too.

Obviously Oakmont was a great golf course, but not too copied, because it was so over the top difficult.

[PPallotta]

Kyle -

How about the 17th green at TPC, and some of the water around it.

Nothing against Pete Dye, but sometimes I wish he hadn't built that, and when he did.

Big money, artificiality, lots of flash - and then came the 80s, all about flash and money
anyway, and now with golf developers, designers, and 'players' having the holy grail
right in front of them.

Yes, it's great theatre come Sunday at the Players.

Peter

[Kyle Harris]

Peter,

That's an excellent suggestion that hadn't crossed my mind at all. It certainly has influenced a number of courses.

The area around the Principal's Nose bunker, including the fairway left of the complex and the OB right would be another on my list. The interplay of hazards and relative risk to gain an advantageous position is at the core of my favorite types of designs and the 16th on the Old Course is one of the original examples of that.

[Slag Bandoon]

The Red Lion Hotel, Prestwick

From the web . . .  Enthusiasts will know that Prestwick was the venue of the first Open Championship but not everyone will be aware of the part played by the Red Lion Hotel.
It was here in 1851 that fifty (or so) gentlemen formed the Prestwick Golf Club. In 1860 the club announced a competition which was open to non-members of the club.
 . . . the Open Championship was born.



 Above, we see the Cross with the Red Lion on the right.

[PPallotta]

That's interesting, Kyle, the justaposition of your suggestion and mine - yours referencing the influence of fundamental/timeless principles; mine suggesting that, in practice, it's showmanship that shapes the game.

Peter   

[Kyle Harris]

Peter,

Even more interesting is that the hole prior to the island green at Sawgrass is a rather shining example of the more timeless and traditional uses of architecture for strategy.

[Kyle Harris]

Karl,

In what ways has Hell's Half Acre been influential? A bunch of Tillinghast courses feature or have featured such a hazard in the past...

[Pete_Pittock]

ASGCAHQ
PGA Tour offices in Ponte Vedra Beach.
Instead of the USGA testing facility, the design headquarters of Ping, Calloway or Nike
The practice area at the White House.
Whatever acre Tiger is treading upon at the moment.

[PPallotta]

Kyle - neat, and good catch on the 16th and 17th.

That ability to handle both the principles and the flash seems a good description of what makes the great and/or influential architect.

Peter 

[Sean Arble]

Adam

The sea comes directly into play on North Berwick's 2nd and Machrihanish's 1st.  Dr Mac was a Johnny come lately. 

I think the interplay between the centreline bunker at Woking's 4th and the green complex (this is probably about an acre in total of land if just the fairway/green are included) has to be one of the most influential bits of property about. 

Ciao

[Kyle Harris]

Sean,

Where is Woking? I am going to compile a group of Google Earth shots with the acre outlined of the selections so far.

[Sean Arble]

Sean,

Where is Woking? I am going to compile a group of Google Earth shots with the acre outlined of the selections so far.

Woking, Surrey GU22 0J7

I don't know if the area I am talking about is an acre - its just a guess.

Ciao

[Kyle Harris]

Sean,

Where is Woking? I am going to compile a group of Google Earth shots with the acre outlined of the selections so far.

Woking, Surrey GU22 0J7

I don't know if the area I am talking about is an acre - its just a guess.

Ciao

I assume you're talking about the small bunker in the middle of the fairway just short of the green. Tom Doak wrote about it in "The Anatomy of a Golf Course" and you would definitely be within an acre for that. 43,500 Sq. ft. is roughly 4 average putting greens.

[Sean Arble]

Sean,

Where is Woking? I am going to compile a group of Google Earth shots with the acre outlined of the selections so far.

Woking, Surrey GU22 0J7

I don't know if the area I am talking about is an acre - its just a guess.

Ciao

I assume you're talking about the small bunker in the middle of the fairway just short of the green. Tom Doak wrote about it in "The Anatomy of a Golf Course" and you would definitely be within an acre for that. 43,500 Sq. ft. is roughly 4 average putting greens.

Kyle

The bunker by itself is not nearly as important as how it relates to the green complex and the oob out on the right.  Remember, for those that don't want to carry the bunker or stay right of it, there is a right greenside bunker which must be carried, the green slopes front to back, there is a back bunker and the oob is more in play from the left.  The entire idea of this hole (especially from the centreline bunker in) practically encapsulates what strategy is all about.

Ciao

[Mark Bourgeois]

Kyle,

Not sure why size matters here, but what about the turf lab Ross and the Tufts set up in Pinehurst.

Sure by now there'd be grassed greens in the South, but their success must have had some kind of impact....maybe beyond Southern greens?

Mark