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Jay Flemma

From Jeff Shelley's cybergolf article:

http://www.cybergolf.com/indexGenerator.asp?newsID=5510

A 10,000 yard golf course.  That'll take what, seven hours to play?  Maybe seven-and-a-half?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2008, 06:15:18 PM by Jay Flemma »

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: John Daly "builds" course with flexible tees that equal 18 par-5s
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2008, 06:10:20 PM »
Topic covered months, if not years, ago.  Seems like a horrible idea to me.  Ugh 
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Jay Flemma

Re: John Daly "builds" course with flexible tees that equal 18 par-5s
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2008, 06:16:25 PM »
I really hate the word "ginormous."

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: John Daly "builds" course with flexible tees that equal 18 par-5s
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2008, 06:32:11 PM »
Topic covered months, if not years, ago.  Seems like a horrible idea to me.  Ugh 

How about years ago ... Jay, you really need to stay current on these things ...


Proposed 10,000 Yard Course - Nov 2006

New John Daly course in NorCal - Sept 2007

Sevillano Links - Dec 2007

"... and I liked the guy ..."

Melvyn Morrow

Re: John Daly "builds" course with flexible tees that equal 18 par-5s
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2008, 06:47:40 PM »

Soon someone is going to suggest linking or connecting adjacent course together, forget 7-10,000 yards, we will be talking of 25-30,000 yard super courses with multi loops of 18 – resulting in a New Open Competition based upon a Le Mans 24 Hour for the Endurance Golfer of the Year - because that will be the time it takes to play a round even using F1 type Turbo Buggies - just sheer bloody madness – long courses are killing the game. Big is not always beautiful and length has its limitations.

Jay Flemma

Re: John Daly "builds" course with flexible tees that equal 18 par-5s
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2008, 06:51:41 PM »
Topic covered months, if not years, ago.  Seems like a horrible idea to me.  Ugh 

How about years ago ... Jay, you really need to stay current on these things ...


Proposed 10,000 Yard Course - Nov 2006

New John Daly course in NorCal - Sept 2007

Sevillano Links - Dec 2007



Mike and Mike, this NEW article of Jeff's talks about the opening of the course.  More stuff has happened since 2006...not a heck of a lot, but it's interesting reading.

John Moore II

Re: John Daly "builds" course with flexible tees that equal 18 par-5s
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2008, 07:48:26 PM »
This course is a real gimmick. But its kind of cool for outings I suppose. From what I understand, they are not going to allow daily play from the Par 5 tees. I think it might bring up some business for that course though.

JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: John Daly "builds" course with flexible tees that equal 18 par-5s
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2008, 07:50:21 PM »
I can see this course has started popping up in several discussions again......

Anything to do with my "Best Hole....." thread?  ;D

I just played last Monday.....working on posting a full write-up tonight or tomorrow.
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Mike Mosely

Re: John Daly "builds" course with flexible tees that equal 18 par-5s
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2008, 07:53:59 PM »
JS, don't keep us in suspense!  Give us a teaser. :D

Reef Wilson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: John Daly "builds" course with flexible tees that equal 18 par-5s
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2008, 09:25:57 PM »
From what I understand, they are not going to allow daily play from the Par 5 tees. I think it might bring up some business for that course though.

Perhaps JS looked much closer for them and found them, but (as I said in a different thread) I looked and saw no sign of these tees when I was up there. They did have the "John Daly" tees, but they are just a ridiculously long set of regular tees. Perhaps the all par 5 tees are yet to be built as I'm sure they are going to be a headache to maintain off by themselves and they are probably more concerned with the generally used part of the course. I did see a random bit of fairway that might be a part of a stretched out par 3.

John Moore II

Re: John Daly "builds" course with flexible tees that equal 18 par-5s
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2008, 12:23:45 AM »
Yes, I have seen overhead pictures of the course, and seen pictures of it on the website and really can't see the par 5 tees, or even where they might be. So, perhaps JS can enlighten us as to where the par 5 tees are.

JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: John Daly "builds" course with flexible tees that equal 18 par-5s
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2008, 11:11:57 AM »
Sorry guys......the review is coming. Got halfway into it last night and had more important things come up.

I did "find" some, but not all of the par 5 tees, and while I will mention them, you will come to realize, as I did, that while they are what everyone is really curious about, once you're out there you can see how it will be accomplished and what the implications of playing that course will be.

So far, everyone stands correct as far as I have been informed, that the par 5 course is not completed in its entirety (but the "regular" course is) and at the moment it sounds like they will only be using the par 5 course on a very select basis mainly for tournaments and exhibitions....not regular public play.

More to come..........
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Jay Flemma

Re: John Daly "builds" course with flexible tees that equal 18 par-5s
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2008, 02:58:00 PM »
How the heck would they turn the par-3s into par-5s?  There's no fairway!  Are they including a one-stroke penalty?! ;D

Doug Ralston

Re: John Daly "builds" course with flexible tees that equal 18 par-5s
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2008, 03:26:44 PM »
From Jeff Shelley's cybergolf article:

http://www.cybergolf.com/indexGenerator.asp?newsID=5510

A 10,000 yard golf course.  That'll take what, seven hours to play?  Maybe seven-and-a-half?

Oh no! Not 7.5 hours wasted PLAYING GOLF!?  ::)

Sometime I wonder about you who are onsessed with fast rounds.

Doug

Jay Flemma

Re: John Daly "builds" course with flexible tees that equal 18 par-5s
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2008, 04:14:25 PM »
Well, Doug what GOOD can come out of making the game take longer to play?  It's already expensive and takes insane amounts of practice to learn "minimum competence" and get around 18 holes with out hitting it "ten feet, then six feet, then eight feet."

I forget where you're from, but here in NYC, rounds take 5-1/2 hours or longer.  Moreover, frequently, you have to drive a good distance to/from the course...and if it's on a sunday, you'll have heavy traffic.

That means playing golf while living in NYC is an all-day affair.

In my opinion, we're going in the wrong direction building courses that taut machismo and unnecessary length.  People average shooting what, 95 on a par-72 6,500 yard course?  Adding an entire third of distance...and a heck of a lot of strokes ill chase newcomers away form the game.

Doug, if you have a good reason why you think it's OK, please tell us.  If architecturally speaking or from an industry perspective you can show us that moving in this direction is good for course design  or will attract more players, I'll be glad to reconsider my position.  But right now, 10,000 yards seems overkill.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: John Daly "builds" course with flexible tees that equal 18 par-5s
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2008, 04:50:50 PM »
Jay

You are absolutely correct – long courses will kill the game. 

What happened to playing in the early morning and then another round in the afternoon?  There is just no sense in building 7,000 yard plus courses.

JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: John Daly "builds" course with flexible tees that equal 18 par-5s
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2008, 07:02:47 PM »
I'm still planning on posting more completely on Sevillano, but I need to get to my home computer where the pictures are, so I'll chime in a bit now on the discussion.

There is alot of debate about this course, specifically regarding the idea of the "par 5 course", but the conversations are heading in the wrong direction. Let's try to not make assumptions and criticize the course before fully understanding its intentions.

The facts as I understand it:

1) Yes, the "regular" course is long, with the tips at 7800 yards. HOWEVER, note I said "the tips". This entire debate BEGS the question...can a course be labelled "too long" just because it presents a set of tees that realistically should only be played by the BETTER players? NO! Come on people, quit trying to blame the courses and look a little more introspectively. Sevillano offers tee options of 7800, 7200, 6800, 6200, and 5400. Now, if "machismo" dictates that you ALWAYS have to play the tips, even if you can't break 100 from them, then that's YOUR problem, not the courses'. The starter at Sevillano did a great job of making the advisement to "play the tee appropriate to your game". True, people may not do this and it may make for a long, slow round, but who's fault is that? The courses'? Start placing the blame where it rightly should reside, with individual's choices on tee selection, and start worrying more about educating golfers to play the correct set of tees. Sevillano presents a unique and challanging layout for all levels of skill, WHEN PLAYED FROM THE RIGHT TEES. BTW, I'm an 8 handicap, and I played from the 7300 tees and I average about 275 off the tees and there was only one hole that I considered penally long.

2) To repeat again, according to my understanding, the 10,000 yard par 5 course is not to be used for everyday public play. It will be maintained and made available for full-field tournaments and exhibitions. THAT is the intention in the design...a unique layout, with a unique idea to try and bring out the BEST players to show off some shot making skill and have a little fun playing the strategies of par 5s on every hole. True, it might make for a long round for those tournament players, but I think that has to be anticipated and accounted for, and therefore won't detract from the game for the people that choose to play in those events.

3) The true drawback, be there any, to such a design, is the demand it places on the superintendent, who has to maintain a 10,000 yard course. This is precisely why I was interested to see the course. However, having now seen it, I can understand that the overall impact is surprisingly not as significant as I had imagined. Think about it....par 5s will simply have one more set of tees behind the "John Daly" tees (that is what the 7800 yard tees are called), the par 4s likewise will have tees significantly farther back, and the fairway of the hole is brought very close to the "regular" sets of tees resulting in quite a few forced carries, but that's why the course is not set up for the everday golfer. And the par 3s....that's the real challange and what I couldn't wrap my head around. You'll really have to visit the course to understand fully, but let's just say that the tees are islands in the distance and you've got to play some serious "target golf", to a more or less island fairway near the "regular" tees then onto the rest of the hole. So all in all, there isn't a HUGE amount of extra turf or distractingly odd layouts. But the par 5 course is DEFINETELY 100% for only the best players. I would love to play it once, for the shear novelty of it, but I am simply not good enough to play that much target golf. That's why exhibitions put on by pros WOULD be fun to watch, to see just how accurate they can be. Who isn't constantly amazed by someone like Tiger nailing a 350 yard drive on to a 4000 sq ft green? The same idea applies here....over and over again.

Go see the course....you have to to understand the design of the "par 5 course", but also because it provides some great holes and a well-maintained and conditioned affordable FUN public layout.
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

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