Are under the table payments a dirty secret in architecture?

[Joel_Stewart]

Do architects pay superintendents a portion of their fee for getting the job and/or do the construction companies payoff the architects or supers for choosing them?

Just wondering.

[Joe Hancock]

Joel,

I have no knowledge of it happening, and it sure hasn't happened in anything I've been involved with.

Is there a reason to ask?

Joe

[George Pazin]

Breaking my own rule by saying this, but I think this thread should be taken down.

Innuendo over conduct that is potentially criminal is not even OT; at least OT topics can potentially help the site develop a community atmosphere. I fail to see what good could possibly come from this.

Just my opinion.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Do architects pay superintendents a portion of their fee for getting the job and/or do the construction companies payoff the architects or supers for choosing them?

Just wondering.

Joel,

It's been my limited experience that the Superintendent DOESN'T make the call on the architect.

It's usually made by the Green Committee/Project Committee and/or Board of Governors.

With respect to construction companies, they're usually selected through the bidding process, which is controlled by the Green Committe/Project Committee and/or Board of Governors.

In your question, how would the superintendent interact with the architects without the knowledge of the committees/board ?

And, how would he have the authority to make the decision on the selection of the architect ?

I'd pose the same question to you with respect to the construction company.

How could they pay off the architect if the architect isn't making the decision ?

Same question as it relates to the superintendent.
If he doesn't make the decision, how can he be paid off ?

Your question can't be viewed in an intellectual vacuum, what triggered it ?

[grandwazo]

My limited experience tells me that one of two things generally happen when an architect is brought in to "renovate" an existing golf course...either the super gets fired or the architect.  Sometimes...both.  I think the construction company gets to play one off the other and generally gets away scott free.  By the time everyone is done pointing fingers, no one is left standing to collect the "payoff".  As I said however, my experience is extremely limited, but more than sufficient to make me never want to be part of that process again.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Joel,

There are only a few well known incidents of such in the gca business.  And I think those of us in the biz know those stories and who is involved.  I'm glad to say that any such incident is as rare as the dodo bird.

I have never been approached nor approached anyone about paying them off for a commission.  I seriously doubt any of the gca's we know and talk about do so.

I am talking about the US here.  I was asked to make payoffs (never did) on several Asian project years ago.

[Michael Christensen]

I am sure there are payoffs within the golf architecture business...as there are payoffs within every other business out there....take insurance, the brokers, the sales manager of the insurer and sometimes the benefits manager of a company are all on the dole in some instances.....nothing new about greasing palms in any industry

Wonder if Joel was mentioning per new course openings or renovations

I do know of one club where the super was paid a substantial amount of money from an irrigation contractor that was chosen to put in all new irrigation lines.....whether or not the super actually made the decision, but the board may have been pointed in one direction

Just as you drive by an accident scene....nothing new to see here folks!

[Mike_Young]

Joel,
It happens but I think as Jeff says...it is rare.
I have had different vendors let me know they pay a commission for recommending their product.  My contract states that any savings obtained by the architect go directly to the owner.  But in most cases these guys had a bad product..the good product took care of itself.
Now I have seen where the architect was handling construction management on a percentage basis... for insurance reasons he was paid his percentage thru the construction company by the owner.  But the owners lawyer set this up.
 
In Latin america....most countries are 10 percent countries...meaning that almost everyone you see has a mark up....the guy that brings the labor charges each of them 10%...the equipment rental company pays 10% to the person that put them in touch with the owner...and it goers on...but this is how they work....And they have no problem telling you how the system works.....

Now you want to see some games played.....ask the chemical companies that will put a tablespoon of active ingredient in 55 gallon drum of chemical and sell to some of these municipal courses.....TV's and everything are mailed out for these deals.....have seen it first hand......

[mike_beene]

Probably most who do this got sidetracked and practice law.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Kelly,

Yeah, and I understand at our next ASGCA meeting we are going to kick disabled children around, take candy from babies and booze from street people.....   We are also doing a position paper titled "screw the whales - before the screw us" and "birds on golf courses - that's good hunting!"

[Melvyn Morrow]

Joel

I agree with George.

It is a very contentious subject and great care should be taken.

Do we want to speculate on potential corruption on GCA.com? Suspicion
is not fact and can wreck careers.

I am certain that within their own industry, Architects may be aware of
perhaps the odd individual who has wandered off the straight and narrow,
but is it right for us to debate or even name alleged cases?

It may be an interesting subject to some, but I for one, would be wary
to venture to deep into what could end up as a minefield for GCA.com.

We must be careful - that’s my opinion  

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Joel:

You're close with your question and it is a legitimate one. If this thread gets taken down it would be blatant censorship. The real query should be: do some well-known architects get kickbacks from the construction companies they recommend for a job? Then you'd be on to something.

Anthony

[Joe Hancock]

Joel:

You're close with your question and it is a legitimate one. If this thread gets taken down it would be blatant censorship. The real query should be: do some well-known architects get kickbacks from the construction companies they recommend for a job? Then you'd be on to something.

Anthony

Anthony,

It would be easy to assume you have some sort of factual knowledge of this kind of activity in one or more instances. I am certain you won't name names though.

Joe

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Joe:

Plenty of first-hand knowledge. It's a story I'd love to write for a magazine but none of the golf fanzines would touch it.

The companion piece would be: Famous architects that never visit the site until opening day, even though they claim otherwise. (Relax Doak sycophants, I'm not talking about HIM.)

Followed by: Architects who claim to design a course when it is really their underlings who do the work.


Anthony

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tony,

It may be a legitmate question, or just muck raking with little or no basis.

I can recall two or three press documented instances since 1977 when I entered the business of gca's being involved in dishonest behavior.  As I tried to say before, its such a small industry we usually here whispers about this or that.  Its hard to believe that you apparently hear a lot more about that kind of thing than I have.

Frankly, I can't recall hearing any of that, so I suspect its not common, especially among the well know gca's who are already compensated handsomely for their work by clients.  If you are getting a million dollar design fee, or even half a mil, how much of a payback would you need to get to make the possible disgrace worth your while?

I tend to agree that we should be careful with this topic. By and large the industry is full of good people, and the suggestion of such tarnishes the whole bunch to a degree for no good reason.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Anthony

No – Not Censorship

Just – Common Sense

If Proof – Then by all means name Names

Legitimate or not – But is it wise to do this through GCA.com

As I previously mentioned – Suspicion is not fact and can wreck careers.
I for one would not want to see the innocent doubted or their integrity
questioned – mud sticks and can be very hard to was off.

What’s the saying ‘Put Up or Shut Up’ but please not through a great
site like GCA.com 

[Ian Andrew]

never mind....

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

I'm sensitive to slander and libel and we are not anywhere near either of them.

These are exactly the kind of topics that should be brought up on this site. Too many times GCA turns into Tiger Beat magazine, just fawning over people that don't deserve it, while concealing the darker side of the industry. Payoffs and kickbacks are a well-known part of the business. Rather than bury your head in bunker sand why not just realize that Joel's thread is, in fact, enlightening and germaine to the world of golf course architecture. Nobody in the industry would disagree with a single point I've made.


Anthony

[Melvyn Morrow]

Ian

That is precisely my point.

[Joe Hancock]

Now I'm curious who you think we fawn over who doesn't deserve it? Or, are we not naming names on that either?

There's no need to lump us all together as to who we like or fawn over, among other things.

Joe

[John Kavanaugh]

If I ever get the chance I hope some day to shake the hand of Ron Whitten for having the courage to introduce ethics into this difficult industry.  His decision to not allow Erin Hills to be considered for the Golf Digest Greatest lists because of his involvement on the design team shone a light I wish more could follow.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Jesus Christ Joe, you can't be that naive, can you?

Anthony

[Joe Hancock]

I'm not naive. Make your point, make it matter.

Otherwise, we have a nice little thread speculating on dirty little secrets with no apparent resolution or outcome.

I have to believe Joel knew he was starting a dead end thread....as it should be I suppose.

Joe

p.s. JK, am I understanding you correctly, in that you just said Ron Whitten is the first ethical person in the golf design industry?

[John Kavanaugh]

p.s. JK, am I understanding you correctly, in that you just said Ron Whitten is the first ethical person in the golf design industry?

I am saying that when Ron told the owner of Erin Hills that if you hire me the course will not be eligible for the Golf Digest top 100 list he is more ethical than most.  I believe that is a heavy burden on a course so acclaimed before any dirt was even moved.  I am even more surprised at the owner not taking a pass.  It should be noted that the owner of Erin Hills was a Green Beret so he has more balls than most himself.

[John Gosselin]

When projects go to bid usually the architect will supply a list of qualified bidders or better a criteria for being able to bid. Clubs, owners, supers, and anyone else involved can and should also research and choose a company or two to to invite to bid.

The last bigger project I was involved with we had five golf course builders invited to the pre bid meeting, three recommended by the architect and two chosen by myself. It was a $5,000,000 project, at at no time did the architect or any of the builders even approach anything that would be considered unethical. I don't think I even got a lunch out of the whole process.

I will tell you that if I were an architect I would be very select in the builders that I would want to work with. In my experience there is a wide range of expertise amongst the builders. So I can certainly understand why certain builders have good relationships with certain architects. It is only natural.