Shadow Creek Rebuild

[Jim Dawson]

I just found out that Shadow Creek will be closed for the next seven months for restoration???
Does anybody have any info on the project?
Thanks,
JD

[Kalen Braley]

Yes,

I heard they have to re-stock it with a fresh new lot of exotic animals and plants.    

[Jay Flemma]

Already?  I thought it was perfect.  Are they going to "re-perfect"it?

[grandwazo]

I have friends who think they are playing there next Monday....oh well, I guess another 4 hours in the casino may turn out to be less expensive than the round of golf they were expecting to play.

[rchesnut]

I played there a couple months ago, and was not impressed with the condition of the course.  Grass wasn't good, one green in particular was just gone.  Even the caddies were telling me about the sick/dying trees (I'm no arborist, but they looked bad to me), and the animals that were brought to the course and didn't survive.  At a minimum, it needs a lot of work....and it may be that a course like this is always going to struggle to maintain outstanding conditioning. 

Rob 

[Scott Weersing]

I bet it is time to redo the irrigation system. If there is hard water then the pipes could be causing problems. Shadow Creek opened in 1989 so the irrigation system is 20 years old.

What is the life of a irrigation system?

[David Stamm]

Hopefully he doesn't use the same system he used at Pelican Hill.....

[Ryan Farrow]

I played there a couple months ago, and was not impressed with the condition of the course.  Grass wasn't good, one green in particular was just gone.  Even the caddies were telling me about the sick/dying trees (I'm no arborist, but they looked bad to me), and the animals that were brought to the course and didn't survive.  At a minimum, it needs a lot of work....and it may be that a course like this is always going to struggle to maintain outstanding conditioning. 

Rob 

Were any articles written where this information can be verified? If so, do this not make Shadow Creek a massive failure?

[David Stamm]

"The real test of a course: is it going to live?"- H.S. Colt

[John Moore II]

how exactly is it a failure? I'm not sure I see it as a failure. Many course have problems keeping transplanted trees, whether the course is in Nevada or Florida. Its just a fact. And perhaps the best grasses weren't used. (best for the time maybe, but maybe now a better grass exists) The poor conditioning recently might possibly be that since they know they are closing (if they are closing) it was decided to cut down on expenditures in the months leading up to the closure in order to maximize the staff hours that can be used on the renovation process prior to closing. Just some ideas

[David Stamm]

how exactly is it a failure? I'm not sure I see it as a failure. Many course have problems keeping transplanted trees, whether the course is in Nevada or Florida. Its just a fact. And perhaps the best grasses weren't used. (best for the time maybe, but maybe now a better grass exists) The poor conditioning recently might possibly be that since they know they are closing (if they are closing) it was decided to cut down on expenditures in the months leading up to the closure in order to maximize the staff hours that can be used on the renovation process prior to closing. Just some ideas

JKM, I don't want to across as some snobby arch critic, but I will quote a couple of other GA architects:


".....no matter how skillfully one may lay out the holes and diversify them, nevertheless one must get the thrill of nature. She must be big in moldings for us to secure the complete exhilaration and joy of golf. THE MADE COURSE CANNOT COMPETE WITH THE NATURAL ONE."- George C. Thomas, Jr.



"No reason exists why a golf course should not decorate the landscape rather than disfigure it."- Simpson and Wethered


Competing with nature rather than complimenting it will more times than not lead to failure. The engineering prowess of Fazio cannot be disputed, but I wonder if Fazio had designed something more harmonious with the Vegas landscape that the demise of the course (if that is what is in fact happening) could have been averted.

[Ryan Farrow]

How long has Shadow Creek been open? It would not be a simple death because it could not get established, or the soils were poor. I think were getting to the bigger issue of not fudging with nature. What makes the course "special" is the oasis in the desert motif. If the course can not survive (surprise, surprise) then what does it have going for it? What is the appeal? Should it still be a 500 dollar green fee?

[John Moore II]

David--how exactly can any course be harmonious with the landscape in Vegas? Its all sand. Do we want an all sand golf course with oiled greens? Not a bad idea, but thats the only thing natural in Vegas, anything else has to be manufactured. Is Shadow Creek a bad idea? Not really I don't think. Is it as good as an all natural golf course? No, but its still a good course (according to Golf Digest, Golfweek and Golf Magazine anyway)

[David Stamm]

David--how exactly can any course be harmonious with the landscape in Vegas? Its all sand. Do we want an all sand golf course with oiled greens? Not a bad idea, but thats the only thing natural in Vegas, anything else has to be manufactured. Is Shadow Creek a bad idea? Not really I don't think. Is it as good as an all natural golf course? No, but its still a good course (according to Golf Digest, Golfweek and Golf Magazine anyway)

No ones asking the course be made of all sand and oiled greens, so let's not get extreme. A desert look course that doesn't require TZ's wall to wall sod and the subsequent cost to maintain would do just fine. I've never played SC, and it looks like I never will. I'm sure it's a very good course, but Fazio has a responsibility to not ONLY give the client a dazzling visual feast for the senses (something it seems he has to do), but a course that can last. 

[rchesnut]

I'm not aware of any articles that describe the issues that I saw, though its rankings have fallen in all the below mentioned publications over the years.  I won't say that SC is a massive failure.  I do think that they're going to be in a constant and costly battle to maintain that kind of course in the desert, though.  Maybe, in Vegas, it's worth it.  Steve Wynn could have had Fazio build a course that was in harmony with the desert terrain rather than trying to impose a whole new ecosystem on the desert, but he was aiming for something spectacular and different. 

[Andy Troeger]

Shadow Creek is hardly the only course to be worked on. Maybe we should find out the actual reason for the renovation before we try to bury the place with speculation.

For disclosure purposes, I've never been there, and the only place in Vegas I've been to is the airport.

[John Moore II]

I would suppose that part of SC was simply stressed after 20 years and the ownership decided it was time to rebuild in order to not lose stature for the course. It seems to me that ultra high end clubs like that tend to do reworks every so often, and maybe this is just Shadow Creek's time to do one. Or perhaps they are losing business to another course in Vegas and feel they need to do some improvements to regain their stature. I certainly feel like this course is not going to shut the doors and bring in the bulldozers.

[Matt_Ward]

The story behind Shadow Creek has always been focused upon the "how" the course was built rather than any real detailing on the "what" type of architecture was actually provided.

I salute the considerable wherewithal of Steve Wynn, Tom Fazio, et al, in overcoming Mother Nature and in providing the launch pad for all the hype and fanfare that has ensured since then. Clearly, the storyline has hooked in plenty of people who are under the illusion that quality architecture of the highest type is present there.

How Shadow Creek ever reached the top ten among GD's best courses has always amazed me because in my mind there's no "there" when it comes to analyzing what has been specifically created.

A timely makeover needs to focus on bringing to life the architecture just as much as resurrecting all the other elements tied to the layout. Shadow Creek proves the point that hype and the hard core sales job can work wonders.

[AChao]

Delete.  Meant to be posted in other thread.