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Tommy Williamsen

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When is it a Biarritz?
« on: November 11, 2010, 11:15:15 AM »
The ninth hole at The Country Club at Woodmore has a green that is canted from right to left.  There is a significant dip in the middle of the green.  Does a Biarritz green always run front to back or does the dip in the middle define it?
Not an earth shattering question.  Just curious.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: When is it a Biarritz?
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2010, 11:49:21 AM »
Tommy,
Here's a really informative thread on the Biarritz, although I don't know if it will answer your question. 

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37184.0/

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

JNC Lyon

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Re: When is it a Biarritz?
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2010, 11:57:51 AM »
I think a hole is Biarritz when:

1) The hole is a long par three of at least 210 yards.
2) The green is relatively narrow and very long from front to back.
3) There are two plateaus, a front and a back plateau, separated by a swale. The back plateau must be cut completely as green.  The front plateau and swale may be either fairway or green.
4) The object of the hole is to hit a running shot that chases through the swale to the back plateau.  Most hole locations on a Biarritz should be on the back plateau.
5) The back plateau is subdivided with subtle but effective ridges.
6) The green is defended on the left and right by long, narrow, and relatively deep bunkers.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

jonathan_becker

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Re: When is it a Biarritz?
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2010, 12:15:41 PM »
JNC,

Based on your personal requirements, would you eliminate #8 at Old Mac because it's only 181 yards and it also doesn't meet your requirements in 6) ? Just curious.


Bruce Wellmon

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Re: When is it a Biarritz?
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2010, 12:35:58 PM »
Can you have a Biarritz on a par 5?
If so, CC Spartanburg's opening hole gets my vote.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: When is it a Biarritz?
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2010, 12:44:53 PM »
How you measure the Biarritz is a key factor.

If the front of it is considered part of the green, then the scorecard yardage to the "middle" is actually just to the swale.  If the front is not considered part of the green, then you are measuring to the middle of the back plateau.  That's about a 25-yard difference on most of these holes.

So, Old Mac is 181 to the middle, but 206 to the middle of the back plateau ... not much shorter than most of the others.

I've always wondered if Yale's Biarritz is actually 25 yards longer than the rest, because they are only measuring to the middle of that huge green.

Joe Bausch

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Re: When is it a Biarritz?
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2010, 01:07:41 PM »
Here is the data for #9 at Yale:



And a recent picture:

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Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: When is it a Biarritz?
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2010, 01:55:31 PM »
Tommy,
If I'm looking(aerial) at the correct hole it appears that there is almost no way to hit a straight shot to the green, and a drawn shot looks to be totally blocked by the tree line.


 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

V. Kmetz

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Re: When is it a Biarritz?
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2010, 01:56:08 PM »
I don't know if this gets at an eternal question better but:
 
The modern "Biarritz the Hole" most often seen, created or preserved, is a one shot hole of usually 190-230 yards, with a unusually long rectangular green, containing a perpendicular gully near its middle which bisects the green into two distinct shelfs.  There are most often guardian bunkers left and right paralleling the sides of the green.  Less often seen, but historically significant, are some older Biarritzes which make the long shot carry water most of the way...

because these are older and closer to the original importation of the design, there is a great deal of question as to whether the Biarritz was...

...an amalgam copy of two holes on the Dunn's course, one being another shorter hole that carried an ocean inlet called "The Chasm?"

...whether it's the graft of another singular hole on the French course, also played over similar terrain as "The Chasm" hole?

...whether the first version of this template wasn't an Approach concept from Scottish models (like Machranish or St. Andrews 18th Valley of Sin) married to the thrills of the shorter Chasm hole.

No matter what your conclusion about the provenance and evolution of Biarritz the Hole...Biarritz the Landform is probably the more salient GCA point in your inquiry.

When looking at the Landform model and not the hole model, then a Biarritz may be defined thus:

"A short raised green pad segregated from its immediate, open approach by an abrupt contour resembling a gully."

In 100 years of evolution as the style was promulgated, the "immediate, open approach" and the "contour resembling a gully" were maintained as actual green surface, not just firm fairway grass, thus resulting in both intended and evolved Biarritzes where the thing mowed as and called the Green is the entire landform.

The older style "Not Green in Front" is often disputed to be the original style and those with green surface the entire way somethign of a bastardization; it is a point capable of question.

But the Biarritz idea... before it's got any water, whether or not it's a par 3... whether or not the entire approach and target are is kept as green surface...is that the topography of approach has a collecting trap door that must be navigated for ultimate success.

That is the reason just about every comment you will hear fro m the board says..."Pin must be in rear shelf...that shelf is the defended target."

cheers

vk

"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Tyler Kearns

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Re: When is it a Biarritz?
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2010, 02:10:51 PM »
Can you have a Biarritz on a par 5?
If so, CC Spartanburg's opening hole gets my vote.

Bruce,

Why not? We designed a biarritz green on a par-5 at a remote 9-holer in northwestern Ontario, and I certainly consider it a biarritz. I've always felt that the general contours of the green defined a biarritz. Furthermore, trying to reach a par-5 biarritz in two would present a similar length shot to those of the Macdonald/Raynor/Banks model.

TK

































































Joe Bausch

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Re: When is it a Biarritz?
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2010, 02:26:48 PM »
The par 5 15th at Glen Mills (Bobby Weed) has a pretty decent Biarritz green.  A good drive will leave a downhill shot of about 210-230 yards to a green about 40 yards deep:







@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mark McKeever

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Re: When is it a Biarritz?
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2010, 02:38:04 PM »
210-230 into the green on 15?  Geez Joe, either you started juicing again or youre playing the wrong tees!

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

RSLivingston_III

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Re: When is it a Biarritz?
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2010, 03:00:31 PM »
To those in the know; Is Mid-Ocean the most literal version of the Biarritz?

As to the "par-5" question, how are they par 5's if it only requires a good drive to set up the proper approach? Sounds like a longish par 4 to me. So IMHO you might be able to call them 'Biarritz in style', with the qualifier being the important part.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: When is it a Biarritz?
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2010, 03:12:14 PM »
Thanks for all the remarks.  While 9 at Woodmore is a par 3 about 200 yards long, that is all it has in common with a Biarritz.  It does not qualify at all. 
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: When is it a Biarritz?
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2010, 06:57:48 PM »
I once asked a prominent member of Quaker Ridge if ever heard #13 called a reef hole. He replied "You mean Biarritz?"

The swale isn't straight or symmetrical, nor as deep as Yale, Old Mac, or Knoll West, but it might be the best green on the course.

Ed Oden

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Re: When is it a Biarritz?
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2010, 08:21:03 PM »
Tillinghast's biarritz green on the par 4 13th hole at Somerset Hills...


Mark McKeever

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Re: When is it a Biarritz?
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2010, 09:35:01 PM »
Very neat looking green Ed.  Thanks for sharing!

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Melvyn Morrow

Re: When is it a Biarritz?
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2010, 09:47:27 PM »


I think Ian covered this rather well in his old blog Caddyshack in2006

http://thecaddyshack.blogspot.com/2006/12/redans-biarritz-and-other-clever-holes.html

Melvyn

Travis Dewire

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Re: When is it a Biarritz?
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2010, 10:29:41 PM »
Is there a term for a green with two distinct shelves, on the back right and left, with a fully in between them?

Hole #8 at Dedham C&PC, and hole #15 at Wanumetonomy GC, both Raynor designs, feature these greens, and I'm sure there are others

Any insight?

Bill Brightly

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Re: When is it a Biarritz?
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2010, 12:02:29 AM »
Is there a term for a green with two distinct shelves, on the back right and left, with a fully in between them?

Hole #8 at Dedham C&PC, and hole #15 at Wanumetonomy GC, both Raynor designs, feature these greens, and I'm sure there are others

Any insight?

Plateau.

At my course, (Hole 8 at Hackensack) when you hit it in the gully between the shelves, we call it landing between the breasts...
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 12:05:59 AM by Bill Brightly »

Joe Bausch

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Re: When is it a Biarritz?
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2010, 10:28:09 AM »
Is there a term for a green with two distinct shelves, on the back right and left, with a fully in between them?

Hole #8 at Dedham C&PC, and hole #15 at Wanumetonomy GC, both Raynor designs, feature these greens, and I'm sure there are others

Any insight?

Plateau.

At my course, (Hole 8 at Hackensack) when you hit it in the gully between the shelves, we call it landing between the breasts...

Here is that very neat plateau green at Hackensack:

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

JNC Lyon

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Re: When is it a Biarritz?
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2010, 06:39:27 PM »
Gents,

Reading through the comments, I think there is a misunderstanding here.  There is a difference between a BIARRITZ and a DOUBLE PLATEAU.  The Double Plateau green is used on a par four or five to create interesting hole locations and require accuracy and approach shots. The Biarritz is not just about the Double Plateau green.  The Biarritz is a long par three that requires an accurate tee shot with a wood that forces a player to judge a running shot through a swale.  A par four or par five does not contain these challenges, and therefore are not Biarritz greens.

All of the par four and par five greens pictured below are Double Plateau greens.  They are not Biarritz holes.

The Biarritz hole requires a Double Plateau green, but a Double Plateau green does not automatically make a hole a Biarritz hole.

Ultimately, the Double Plateau is a type of green, and the Biarritz is a type of hole.

I have not played Old MacDonald.  If a back pin requires an accurate, running wood shot (206 to the back plateau would mean that it does for many players), it is likely a Biarritz hole.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Mac Plumart

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Re: When is it a Biarritz?
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2010, 06:45:59 PM »
Dave Moriarty stressed to me that the key element of the Biarritz hole was the carry over a significant hazard, not just the aspects of the green.  Like Vinnie mentioned the inlet on the "Chasm Hole" was the forced carry over a significant hazard on the original. 
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

JNC Lyon

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Re: When is it a Biarritz?
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2010, 06:54:08 PM »
Mac,

That might be another characteristic of the Biarritz, although not all of the CBM/Raynor/Banks replicas have that feature.  Often, there would be cross bunkers short of the first plateau to represent this crossing hazard.  We see this at Hackensack.  Furthermore, some of the most lauded Biarritz holes (9 at Yale, 5 at Fishers) have that feature.  Yet I think the heroic carry is secondary to the challenge of the swale.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas